Episode #8 - Jessica Dueñas - Bottomless to Sober

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Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframeable Podcast, a podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass.

In today's episode, we will be talking with Jessica Dueñas from bottomless of sober.com. Jessica shares her story of addiction recovery and using her voice to help people find their way out of pain. Jessica's disordered behaviors started with binge eating in her bedroom to cope with the pressures of being an Afro-Latina girl growing up in New York City.

By the time she got to college, her addiction had morphed into alcohol use disorder.

Years later, she was awarded the Teacher of the Year in Kentucky, but was still drinking a fifth bourbon a day. A secret she had to hide from peers, friends, and students. Ultimately, she found recovery and has been sober [00:01:00] since November, 2020. Her recovery starts in 12 step spaces and eventually branches out to other self-development work.

Jessica has shared her story on platforms such as npr, red Table Talk, and most recently C B s to help break the stigma of addiction and mental health treatment. Through her platform, she shares other stories of people's recovery, continues to break the stigma of addiction and coaches, individuals who also need private support in their healing journeys.

She's also the host of Reframes book club meetings and the community meeting for those in their thirties and forties. On Monday nights in the app, we chat about the willingness to be open and taking other people's power over us, away by recovering out loud.

My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe App.

This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the [00:02:00] healthiest, happiest you. So without any further delay, let's go chat with Jessica.

Kevin: Hey, Jessica, how's it going?

Jessica: Good. How's it going?

Kevin: Good. Now that we're, now that I'm all set up and ready to go, we can, we can get started. So, uh, how are you doing today?

Jessica: I'm good. I'm am enjoying my first, um, summer Saturday with the semesters being done at school, so I'm happy to be in summer mode.

Kevin: Awesome. Uh, do you do any school in the summer or,

Jessica: um, no. I mean, I will be working over the summer, but my schedule's like a million times lighter, so it's just nice to like have a longer weekend and things like that. So it's just nice. Yeah.

Kevin: Awesome. That's great. So appreciate you making the time to join us today.

So let's just, uh, let's just get kicked right off and, why don't you tell us a little bit about your story and we can, uh, Dive in.

Jessica: Yeah, so I'll do the shortened version. Yesterday I told my story on Reframe in the [00:03:00] speaker share meeting and that was almost an hour, so I'll definitely cut it down here.

But yeah, so I'm Jessica for anyone who's listening and I am, um, one of the coaches here on Reframe. I host the Monday night meeting, ages 30 to 49. And then I also, um, do the book club meetings, which is like one of my favorite all time ever things to do. I have been alcohol free since November 28th, 2020.

And essentially my history is that of a long, complicated one with alcohol. So I'm a first generation American. Uh, I grew up born and raised in Brooklyn and my parents were, um, immigrants. My father was Cuban. My mom is Costa Rican. And before alcohol was an issue in my life, I feel like food was my first issue, but it really isn't the thing.

It's more like these are the symptoms and it's more like the things that we're dealing with. Right. So when I was a kid, I was an overweight kid. And, um, very quickly, like doctors told my mom that she needed to like, make me lose weight. And so very early on there was a [00:04:00] lot of like attempts to control what I was eating and shaming me for being an overweight child.

So like I would get yelled at if I tried to go get like seconds and things like that. So from early on I learned to feel ashamed and learned to hide behaviors. So what was I, what I was doing as a kid with food? I very quickly transferred to alcohol once I could get my hands on alcohol. So like, one of the stories I always tell about me being a child was that, you know, I want the Chinese food from the corner store.

And I like picked my mom's purse for a couple dollars to go get it. I ordered the chicken wings and french fries, ate 'em up, and then I took all the like food leftovers, hid them in a bag, put it in my backpack, and as soon as I got to school, I dumped the trash out because I didn't want there to be evidence of me eating outside of like what my parents told me I could or couldn't eat.

Um, again, fast forward to my alcohol consumption, I was doing the exact same thing. And so, um, one of the things that I learned to really help me cope [00:05:00] with feeling shame about like when I was a kid was like my body size and image was, I was really bright academically. So immediately like though my parents were always stressing me about my weight, They loved the fact that I was a good student.

And so I leaned very heavily on school to like , boost my mood, boost my self-esteem. And when I became a working professional as a teacher, I leaned very heavily on making sure that I was a really good teacher because it would make me feel better about myself when I drank so problematically.

And so my drinking started in college with, you know, just the casual, like how a lot of college students do the binge drinking. Right. And even though that's problematic and you know, any physician or the CDC will tell you that binge drinking has all these risks. It's so normalized on college campuses that nobody looks twice at the binge drinking college student.

So that was definitely me. Um, but when my drinking really shifted, was. My first year teaching was right after college and I was a first year teacher with a bunch of other, like fresh outta college [00:06:00] students or fresh outta college teachers in Brooklyn. And we would always go to happy hour. So again, just that normalization of drinking to cope with the stresses of the workday.

And I had one of my friends, a former colleague, be like, dang, Jess, you're not drinking too fast. And that immediately brought me back to my mother trying to police me over my food. And immediately that set off the switch up. I've got to hide these behaviors. People can't see me drink how I wanna drink.

The same way you couldn't see me eat how I wanted to eat before. Yeah. So. Um, I started hiding my drinking and I started to always make sure in social settings my drinking matched what other people's drinking looked like. So if there was heavy drinking, I drank heavily, but if it was a just a casual happy hour, I would just keep it to one or two like everyone else.

Um, shortly after that, I was married to my ex-husband and because he didn't have a problematic issue with alcohol, um, that kept me at bay. There were a few instances where I overdid it [00:07:00] because I, you know, wasn't careful and I wasn't calculating everything like a mathematician and then would black out and end up in the hospital.

That happened a few times while we were together. Um, one time it happened and it was scary enough that I ended up in the hospital and that triggered me to be alcohol free for a whole year because I didn't wanna lose the marriage. I didn't wanna lose our house. I didn't wanna lose any of that. But then once I no longer cared about the marriage, I was like, well, I'm gonna welcome my good old friend alcohol back.

And when we got divorced, that's when it was on for me. And that's when I finally lived by myself for the first time ever in my life. And that's when I finally could drink how I wanted to always drink. And so very quickly, my tolerance, it went from like the bottles of wine to oh wine's not enough for me, let me switch to liquor.

And with the liquor, it was first a half pints, then the pints, and then it was the pints plus the little shooters. And I was like, you know what, let me just go ahead and buy a fifth. You know? Let me make the financially [00:08:00] smart decision Yes. And get the fifth to get, you know, just get what I want. Yeah. Um, and within a year of drinking, about a fifth a day, so this is about 2018 into 2019.

Um, I also started noticing that I was getting sick. And when I went to the doctor, I was in fact diagnosed with alcoholic liver disease. So I had been losing weight and you know, like I'm tall and I'm like strong. So like I'm not petite. People usually think I played sports and stuff, like I look like a basketball player and I suddenly lost a bunch of weight.

But then I had a belly and my vision was getting blurry and I was bruising easily and I had no appetite. And so everything lined up with the alcoholic liver disease symptoms. And I got diagnosed in OC in August and my first attempt at going to rehab was in September of 2019. And, but the thing was I went, did the treatment and didn't do anything else.

There was no talking about it, no personal development [00:09:00] work, no real seeking the community. So it was only a matter of time before I would drink again when I ended up in treatment yet again over the holidays in from 2019 to 2020. Then I also had the genius idea to fall in love with someone who I was in treatment with.

And, um, he was in recovery also from opiates. His name was Ian. And when we got out of treatment, we both joined 12 step programs and each of our mentors sponsors told us terrible idea to date, an early recovery, don't do it. We were like, no, this is different. We're gonna do it anyway. Right? Yeah.

Kevin: What do they know?

Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. Right. And it's like, you know, the hormones and everything, like the heart wants what it wants and Yeah. You know, I, I learned lessons the hard way. So for me, I was like, no, I know you're telling me this and I know you might, you might be alcohol free for 30 something years.

Cause my sponsor was like sober since the eighties and I was like, I know you've been sober for this long, but I'm gonna do this cause I wanna, [00:10:00] and um, here's a content warning for listeners. Um, when the pandemic hit. And again, we weren't AA and we weren't aware of spaces like Reframe and all these other communities that exist online today.

Right. Um, so at that time what we had were church basements. And when Covid hit and everything closed down, those church basements all shut down. So we didn't have spaces to go to. And um, honestly, the narrative in some 12 step spaces were that if you weren't in a 12 step space, everything else basically, Wasn't good enough.

You know, you would just die if you weren't in these tall step spaces. So we were almost like taking time bombs that early in recovery before something happened. And, um, he relapsed. And so he relapsed on a Friday. And by Tuesday or Monday, it's always a blur to me, which day it was. But it was April 28th, 2020.

[00:11:00] Um, again, content morning for listeners, but he passed away and I found him, um, he, we were kind of getting into an argument over the fact that he was relapsing and, you know, didn't wanna go to treatment. And I was like, well, I'm trying to not drink so you can't be like, I can't have you doing heroin and I am here trying not to drink alcohol.

Like this is not working. And he's like, okay, well I'm gonna run to the gas station, I'll be right back. But he never came back. And, um, when I went to his apartment and knocked, called the cell phone, the cell phone was ringing. He wasn't answering. And um, by the time 9 1 1 was called by an angry neighbor.

Um, And they came, he was gone. And you know, this is where reading is so powerful in my journey because I have a really hard time cleanly putting together that memory. Like it's all just second bits and pieces. And when you read, the Body Keeps the Score, which is a really hard read and I always recommend that you read that with care [00:12:00] and like gentleness to yourself.

But one thing that that book does is it explains that traumatic memories are really hard to recover sometimes. And so I still don't have the perfect seam of the story, but I just remember that he was dead. And then I remember seeing him and how blue he was. And um, and then I remember calling the mom.

The mom came, the coroner taking him away. And then it's like, the next memory I have is me going right into a liquor store. And then it's like, and before I know it, I'm in the hospital again because I drank so much that I was hospitalized. And so, um, it's eight months of living like that. Essentially, after he passed, I was completely set off and come November of 2020 is when I finally had a shift.

And you know, you talk about being re frameable and I think about my journey as reframing because. From the time I first went into a treatment facility in [00:13:00] 2019, I wanted to be alcohol free, but I wasn't really willing to do all the things that I needed for me to actually become an alcohol free sober person until November of 2020.

So it took like eight trips to rehab, you know, like stays from three days up to like a five week stay in one, uh, residential facility. And for me, just some of those things involved, like willing, being willing to talk about it, being willing to consult with the physician for a medical recommendation, and being open to the medical recommendation.

Um, for me, someone who, since I was a little child, relied on my profession, giving me so much of my validation, but then also Dr. Working myself to the ground. Becoming willing to walk away from a profession that I had one teacher of the year in. So like, you know, I had like a national recognition for being the state teacher of the year in [00:14:00] Kentucky, and I had to do all these really hard things to finally get to being alcohol free.

But I had to have that growth mindset, I had to have that flexibility. And even since getting sober and quitting drinking, right, like it's been a constant work in progress of constantly like evaluating myself and assessing like what's working for me, what doesn't resonate with me, you know, um, starting in 12 step spaces.

And by the time I was like a couple months sober, I decided that that didn't work for me. After I met, um, Annie Grace in person and Katie from the Sober Black Girls Club on the set of Red Table talk, and I had asked them like, oh, what do your sponsors think about this? They were like, we don't have sponsors.

And I was like, what? So you're sober and you're not in AA. That was the first time I had ever heard of that. But again, I was open-minded to hear their experiences and then go back and really start assessing like, what works for me. So, in a nutshell,[00:15:00] that's kind of like my story. And so today I've been alcohol free for almost two and a half years since.

Kevin: Yeah. And what year, did you win that? Uh, con, was it Kentucky? Yeah. Year.

Jessica: I, I won that in 2019, so I won that at the peak of drinking a fifth of alcohol a day. Like I was drinking at my worst. And I was at my sickest when I won that award, because I was doing, I worked, I busted my tail, I busted my ass so much at work to feel better about myself and my drinking.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to get, kind of get that in the timeline to see like, when that was because Right. I mean, we, it's easy to. It's not easy, but it's easy to say like, look, from the outside, I don't have a, you don't have a problem. Like you're teacher of the year and you're doing all these things and you know, you're pouring yourself into your work and all that.

But, on the inside, how are you feeling during that time?

Jessica: Yeah. On the inside I felt like I was a terrible person. And it, and it was like every day I would [00:16:00] show up to work and I would pray, basically. Like, I, I can't be a bad person if I'm a good teacher. Like, that was almost like what I was really into my head every day because of the shame.

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah. And, and I like, I love how you said about, you know, you in 20, I believe 2019, you, cause I just talked about this on one of the recent episodes, like the wanting versus willing thing. And I feel like we have to want it, right? We have to want to make a change. But it's that key piece of am I willing to do what I need to do is, is wanting enough and it could be enough to start. But then assessing like, okay, how do you see that that shift, uh, in your own journey as far as what you wanted to do versus when you decided in November, 2020 of, what am I willing to change now?

How did you go about that?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I think like for me, going from wanting to willing involved, being frustrated at getting the same results from only wanting, right? Like [00:17:00] only wanting and having a lack of willingness led me to continue having full blown vendors full, you know, episodes that would consistently land me in the hospital.

Like, you know, it was just like my drinking had gotten to the point that it was like a guarantee that if I drank one, it'd be a matter of maybe a day or two before I'd end up hospitalized. And I was just really sick and tired of that, like, so wanting it wasn't enough to keep me outta the hospital.

Kevin: I think that's, uh, yeah. There's plenty of times when I wanted to make a change and I tried, uh, and I say I tried, I always hate the word try, right? Because it's like, you know, okay, oh, I'm gonna try and do that. Anytime I say I'm gonna try and do something, I know pretty much that I'm not going to do that thing.

Like either I'm going to do it or I'm gonna not. Um, but I tried to make changes. I tried to do superficial things. I didn't go the AA route because, in my head I didn't know anybody that [00:18:00] did that I didn't end up in the hospital. I didn't have that, that type of bottom where it forced me into a program like that.

So I looked around and I was like, okay, well I can either go into AA or I can keep drinking and, and I'm like I guess I'm gonna keep drinking cuz that doesn't seem like something I'm going to do. Um, I wasn't willing to do that. I didn't get to the point where I was willing to do that. Um, but I had asked myself, what am I willing to do in order to make a change once it got bad enough?

And, and so you said that in November of the 20, when was the red table talk?

Jessica: The red table talk was May of 21. So I, I think I had just hit like five months sober.

Kevin: Okay. Um, and then when you had that shift of like, okay, you know, like, oh, who's your sponsor and stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, personally I thought like everybody, anybody who went alcohol free, they went through aa.

Like, that's, that was my impression. Uh, I didn't know there were other ways. [00:19:00] Um, I found it, I stumbled upon it myself. But how did you make that shift? Or what was that shift like from, you know what, this isn't necessarily working for me anymore. Meaning, you know, AA, and not that it wasn't working, but how do you make that shift?

What was that thing that pushed you into trying something else?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, that's a great way that you say it, because it was working right? I wasn't drinking, so it was working, but I didn't like it. But I thought that was the only way.

Um, so yeah, so basically when I flew back from LA after filming that episode of Red Table Talk, I went straight to my therapist and I was like, listen, I met these two people who've been, haven't drank for years, and they're functional, good looking, happy women. And I was like, and they don't go to aa. So like, I, like, I just, I was still like, just struggling to make sense of it.

And she was like, well, what do you think will happen if you don't go to a meeting? And I was like, well, I've been told that if I stop [00:20:00] going, I'm going to drink and die. And she was like, well, do you think you're going to drink and die if you stop going? And I was like, I don't think so. And so she encouraged me to just try and see what happens, right?

Like miss a meeting and see what happens. And so that's literally what I did. It was almost like there was a meeting that I normally attended that I didn't care for, but I did it because I felt like I had to. And so that meeting, it was coming up, it was on my calendar and I was like, I'm not gonna go and I'm gonna see what happens.

And I didn't go and nothing happened. But you know, for anyone who's listening, right? Like the important takeaway here is not that I blew off all supports, right? It was I did this. Under the guidance and supervision of a professional. And that can be a therapist, that can be a coach, right? That can be a sober mentor of some kind.

But I wasn't just like, oh, I'm blowing everything off. I don't need any [00:21:00] supports. It was just like, I don't think that this support is working for me. And so when I did that and I realized that, you know, I did a burst into flames by not attending the meeting. Um, I was like, well, let me just start reading more and let me find more people.

So that's when I really also started diving into using the internet more as a way to connect with other people from all over the place. And again, it was like time and time again, the more. Alcohol free people that I met on the internet, the more I was finding that they were just fine years without a drink and they weren't in 12 step programs.

And so, you know, I started to really just dive into developing my interests, reading more, writing more, um, getting more into my blog, um, exercising, like getting into things like salsa classes and putting things on my schedule that were just different and unique and novel to me. And it's funny because it totally lines up with like restructuring our brains [00:22:00] neurologically.

Like for those of you who are listening that might join the book club we learn about how when we try new things, our brain slowly restructures itself to get comfortable in these new spaces. And I really feel like that was my biggest shift. It was like, okay, the time that I would've spent in these meetings that I sat in and didn't get much out of, except like checking off a box.

I started filling my time with enrichment and also personal development, reading enrichment, fun, um, sober fun, and just really taking off from there. And then, yeah, leaning heavily on my therapist and eventually working with a coach and things like that.

Kevin: It's funny cuz I just, I did one of the Reframe meetings today.

I did the men's meeting. I, I ran the men's meeting, and we talked about novelty, we talked about that. Um, adding novelty into our lives. Adding, you know, in, in like the background of it as far as from a evolutionary perspective and how it impacts our brains and dopamine and all that.

And, finding those [00:23:00] things that are different, finding those things that excite us. Finding those things that are enjoyable is huge, right? Because a lot of times we're drinking to go away from something that, to drink away something that that we're struggling with or that we don't wanna deal with.

So finding those other things that we can do. Is, it can be huge and you're one step ahead of me with, the, I was gonna say this isn't a invitation to go blow off your meetings and, um, and things like that. I, I was thinking about that because Right. I mean, being honest with yourself, cuz some people might hear that and have been thinking about that, like, do I need to do this?

But you had that support, you had that plan in place and you know, it's like, okay, I'm gonna try not to do this one and you're gonna journal about it and you're gonna think about it and you're gonna talk about it. Right. It's not just like, um, fooling yourself into saying like, I don't need this, or, you know, this is dumb or, or whatever, you know, the case may be.

Um, but yeah, I mean, and especially with, I think building up. I, I don't like to have [00:24:00] a need for any one particular thing, right? Because if we put all our eggs into one basket, what happens if that goes away? Right? What happens if we have a global pandemic and we can't get together, you know, in a community?

What do we do then? And we've, we've quickly, you know, had other avenues with Zoom and with internet and all those connections. But, um, if somebody relied on that particular meeting to get them through a day and it goes away, what else? What, what are you gonna fall back on? Always having that fall back and, and kind of talking about those other things that we do because, you know, that could lead to a setback, right?

That could lead to, uh, slip a relapse, whatever you want to call it. Uh, but overcoming setbacks, overcoming slips. If they happen, I, it's a touchy subject. I feel, I don't let me know your thoughts on this. Like, I always caveat everything around when I start talking about a , like if you have a slip, I'm like, this isn't encouraging you to have a slip.

This isn't saying [00:25:00] slips happen. It's not that they're inevitable, it's just that if it happens, how can you, reframe it. How can you, uh, what's the next thing you do? How do you bounce back from that? So what is, what is the mindset here as far as overcoming setbacks, overcoming slips, overcoming whatever that is that, that might get thrown at you?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I think like the important way to look at a slip or a setback or a relapse, whatever, insert, whatever vocabulary word you wanna use as a listener, um, is really using it as a data point. If it, it already happened, we can't go back and undo it, but you know what, we can sure learn a whole hell of a lot of about ourselves from it.

Right. So it's like, you know, with any kind of setback that you have, why did it happen, right? What were the circumstances? What were you thinking? What were the thoughts going into it? What were your feelings? And then like if you could go back and rewrite that story, what would you have done differently?

Right? And then it's like having that [00:26:00] knowledge and that understanding to help prepare you for the next time that those circumstances might present themselves so that you don't find yourself having the same slip. And you know, and this is like whether you're alcohol free or cutback, right? Because like you can be on the cutback track and tell yourself, okay, on this day I'm only gonna have the one drink or the two, and then you go way overboard.

Or again, with alcohol free people, you know, people who say they're not going to drink and then they drink anyway. And so I think like when the setbacks happen, if they do like being kind with yourself and not judging yourself, but being very much like, let me get curious and see what can I take away from this?

Because there's always something to be taken away from anything that happened. So that's, I feel like what's really important. I feel like I didn't have that kindness to myself and definitely in spaces that I was in when I was relapsing, I used the word relapse when I was relapsing a bunch. You know, I didn't necessarily have kind or nurturing words towards me, which made me only feel more shame.[00:27:00]

Um, so when I work with anybody one-on-one and they have that setback, it's the kindness and what can we really look back at and learn from it that we can like apply moving forward.

Kevin: Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, uh, I'd like to get definitely the kindness, right? And one way that I always recommend to go about that is like, you know, cause we're, we're our har harshest critics, right?

We, we beat ourselves up more than we do anybody else. Is to think about what if a friend came to you and told you this, like, Hey, this just happened and I'm feeling really low and all that. What would you say to them? And, and that can be tough, like right, when you're going through this yourself, that could be tough.

But to think about it that way, you would never tell your friend, oh, you're horrible. Like, and, and maybe you would, who knows? But most likely you wouldn't tell your friend that you would support them, right? You would give them help and guidance and support.

Um, So, you know, I, I feel like that's one one Good way. And, and get curious. Yeah, for [00:28:00] sure. Get curious about, you know, cuz you have, I love when you said data point, I'm an former accountant by trade, and you know, having those data points and being able to look at that and look back at something that's tangible, right?

That happened, that's maybe something that you'll see again, right? And, and go through and take a look and be like, okay, well how could I have done that differently? You know, what, what would I do next time if this happens? how do we, how do we get out of our own way sometimes with whenever we're or beating ourselves up about this?

Is there a easy way to do that?

Jessica: Yeah, that's so tough, right? But I feel like one of the biggest ways, one, again, if we're like just being very like technical. Like asking ourselves the last time that we talked to ourselves this way, what results did I get right?

Like the last time that I talked shit to myself and made myself feel terrible about a slip up? What outcome did I get? And if the outcome was still drinking in a [00:29:00] way that I didn't wanna drink or drinking when I said I wasn't going to drink, then it's like, then what needs to change? Right? Like, what do we need to do differently to get new results?

And also like the other thing too with our own thoughts, like sometimes we do think really harsh thoughts and maybe like, We're not a positive affirmation type of person, and that feels really phony, which to me, positive affirmations can feel really phony. And so it's like, well, what's a thought?

What's like a baby step towards a positive thought that I can have about myself? So maybe I don't believe that I'm deserving of a happy life, right? But maybe, I can tell myself, I'm willing to be open to believing that I'm deserving of a happy life. Right? That's better than saying I'm trash because I drank, or, you know, it's better than saying I'm trash.

I can't control myself, I'm worthless. Like, what's wrong with me? At least saying like, I'm willing to be open to feeling like I deserve better things. You know, a little baby step in that direction can help too.

Kevin: I love that. I love [00:30:00] that I'm willing to be insert whatever here, uh, because yeah, positive affirmations, you know, the way I look at it is, you know, we talk, we can talk so negatively to ourself that.

You know, that impacts us right? Over time, you know, we keep doing that. That's going to impact how we see things, how we, how we live day to day. And, and we can look at that in our own life. So yes, if we talk positively to ourself, it can help. But I agree. It's like, you know, I'm looking in the mirror like I am good enough, and, you know, that, that, that's just not, to me, it, it doesn't feel genuine.

So finding those ways that, uh, can work for you. I'm willing to be open to working on myself is a great one.

So, so with that when we're, so we're talking about coming back from a setback. And that's, I think getting back to getting back to it, you know, whatever it is, what, whatever you're working on, whatever you're doing, you know, a, after having [00:31:00] that slip, after having that relapse, after having that setback.

How do we get back quicker? We're talking about looking at the setback afterwards, looking at the slip afterwards. But, you know, what are some ways that some positive ways, good ways that you can pull yourself out of that as quickly as possible.

Cause I think that's important, right? Recognizing that you're in that and getting out and continuing on with your journey and continuing on with the work you're doing.

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I would say the biggest thing, and it looks different for different people, but the biggest thing is talking about it, like owning it.

Right? And the way that I would say that is, like, let's say for me in my personal story, deciding to publicly come out and like tell everybody what the hell was happening. That was the fastest way to really fire me up in terms of being and staying alcohol free. But a, not everybody can do that for different reasons.

So. How else would I suggest it? I would [00:32:00] say like, let's say, yeah, getting on a meeting, like say a reframe meeting and owning up to what you did, what happened, so that that way it doesn't have that same power and hold over you. I remember when I decided to finally tell my story, after years of hiding the fact that I was dealing with addiction to alcohol, it, I literally felt a huge burden off my chest, and at least I knew that that secret was no longer making me sick.

And so going back to anybody, whether you're comfortable with like being recovering out loud, like on your platforms that you might have, social media, whatever. If you're not comfortable with doing that, then just come on a meeting and say it honor your journey and declare it so that you have other people who can join you and support you.

Because that's the biggest thing. When we're quiet, nobody can support us because nobody knows what's happening. But if we talk about it, even if it's one other person, um, the biology of desire talks about the solution to addiction is just needing one other person to help you with this, right?

So like all you need is one person if you [00:33:00] choose to do a whole meeting, whatever, but you have to talk about it so that somebody, another life form can support you. And our pets are great, but I'm thinking a human right, like a human has to know. What you did so that they can help cheer you want so you can pick up the pieces.

That for me is like number one.

Kevin: Yeah, I want to talk about that too, about, you know, recovering out loud, coming out publicly and doing that. And I will say too, you know, it's because that's scary, right? You know, whether, whether we're doing it on social media, whether we're doing it with friends and family, whether we're doing it work or you know, or on something like reframe, right?

Where you, you go onto a Zoom meeting with potentially, you know, 200 other people and that can be scary to raise your hand in that meeting and share, but that's not necessarily the only option. You can go in the chat and say just, you know, I'm trying to get back, I'm having a [00:34:00] rough day, and people will go on there and support you and you know, or the, we have the forum inside the app, um, and just different ways to open up about it that isn't necessarily like raising your hand and chatting it from the rooftops and, um, and all that. But doing it right somehow, like you said, our dogs might count, or our pets, um, but you know, they're not gonna give good feedback.

Um, they're not gonna give support, uh, necessarily. Um, but, uh, you know, and I even, I even would say start, you know, with your own self, you know, telling your own self in a journal. Uh, I'm big on journaling, so, you know, writing my, writing all my thoughts down about it can help me kind of make sense of it and see where to go next.

And then maybe I'm more comfortable in sharing it, either with my voice or, uh, in a chat, in a forum, in on social media, [00:35:00] something like that. Um, so after you found out like, okay, there's other ways to go about this, you know, how did you, is that when you would say that you started recovering more out loud?

I mean, you were already kind of doing that. Uh, I think, you know, you started your blog and I don't know if you were coaching at that point, uh, when you did the red table talk, but, um, you know, at that point, like recovering the power of recovering out loud. Like what does that look like and, and what, how did that show up in your own journey?

Yeah,

Jessica: so I would say recovering out loud for me started right when I stopped drinking. So when I decided to come out and tell everybody what was going on, that for me came out in the form of a written op-ed that I published in the local newspaper in Louisville, Kentucky, where I was named Teacher of the Year.

And like the article was like Kentucky State Teacher of the Year share story of like addiction and recovery, right? So that happened. My sobriety date is November 28th. That was [00:36:00] published December 3rd. So big risk, right? Like I had barely a couple days without a drink. And I was like, well, I'm gonna just go ahead and write this.

And that was a very impulsive decision. Um, but it felt really right in my gut to just go ahead and do that because I knew that if I put it out there, there wasn't a single person on this earth that could hold it over my head. And that for me was the power of recovering out loud. It's that I completely took away anyone's power over me and gave it all to myself so that now if I went back and I drank, well that fell totally on me.

But, you know, in terms of anyone holding a secret against me or that someone saw me in a rehab and that they were gonna tell somebody that they had seen me there, I knew that I could sleep peacefully knowing that there was absolutely nothing that anyone had on me like ever again. And that to me was really.

Empowering because I'd always been so fueled and like pressed on by [00:37:00] shame. Like shame really was, it drove me to be an excellent employee. It drove me to, you know, just like drive myself crazy because I would do anything to not be found out. So to do that and recover out loud in that way was just really, really freeing.

And then it morphed into, um, blogging. It morphed into coaching probably about a year and some change later. Um, but for me, the first step of recovering out loud was just breaking anyone's control over me. You know, I felt like I'd always been controlled with, from my mom with the food to the coworker calling me out to, you know, issues with my ex-spouse, like all sorts of things.

And that was finally me cutting the cord between anyone's control over me.

Kevin: Wow. Yeah. And yeah, impulsive for sure. Like, that's, that's big, right? I mean, how scary was that?

Jessica: Like It was scary. It was terrifying. I thought, you know, I was waiting for a really negative response and then I only got overwhelming love, but I was expecting the worst.

Kevin: Yeah. Oh [00:38:00] yeah. And I think that's what we all do. If we put something out there like that, we all just kind of brace ourselves and, you know, because we're maybe so down on ourself that we just expect everybody else will. Uh, and that's typically not the case.

That can be, that can be very scary though, right? To, to put it out in such a public way, even if it's just, you know, for me it was a couple days after I. Said to myself, like, I, once, once I finally got to that willing point, um, you know, I wanted it, and now I was willing to do something differently.

And a couple days after that, I finally told my wife, like I didn't put, put it in a newspaper. And that was scary enough was to just, to come out and say something to her. Um, so it, you know, it, it can be different levels and, you know, what would you say to, to someone cause there's a lot of people that don't wanna do that, right?

There's a lot of people that aren't going to do something like that. There's a lot of people that aren't going to go, come out on social media and do that. I hear people say like, yeah, I wanna get some more time [00:39:00] under my belt before I. Come out and tell it to this person or these people, or, or that, I wanna make sure I'm good because I don't wanna disappoint them if I have a slip, if I have a setback. What's your advice to someone who's thinking that?

Because I think that's a very common thing, right? I mean, with anything it, alcohol, you know, especially, but, you know, whenever we're working on that, but with anything we, we wanna make sure that we're solid.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get that right, because I, like I said, I wrote that with a few days of.

Not drinking within a meeting, not drinking. And I was like, well F it. I'm gonna put this out here. Yeah. You know, that's a great thing. I feel like the whole, I'm gonna wait until I hit whatever milestone, whether it's drinking weight loss, right? Like I'm gonna wait until I lose X amount of pounds to wear that bikini.

You know? I feel like I read this somewhere and it really stuck with me. And it's like when we are waiting to hit a specific milestone to finally live fully, it's like we're making the [00:40:00] decision to be unhappy today. Right? Like anytime that we choose to. Not celebrate where we're at. It's like we're just choosing to be unhappy and dissatisfied where we are.

So like if you're waiting to hit like 30 days before you tell anybody, because you need to prove that you can make it to 30 days, then it's like you're saying that the day that you're in today is like nothing. And the day that you're in today is the actual day that you have. Like you don't know, I mean, we never know what could happen later today or anything.

But wherever you are today is exactly where you need to be and it's valid and it's a powerful place to be in. It could be day one, right? I mean, someone who may be, if you're on an alcohol free path, and let's say maybe you got to seven days. The person who can't put that bottle down is looking at you and wondering, how the hell did you get there?

Because a week without alcohol to an addicted person can seem impossible. I remember it used to seem impossible to me. So I would say anybody who's waiting [00:41:00] to hit a milestone, like no, like don't. If you are going to be open about it and you're just waiting to hit a certain milestone, like no, your journey that is valuable like right now.

Kevin: Cause ultimately, if you're on day 30 and you tell somebody what happens on day 31, what happens on day 32? Like, there's still things that you're, you know, you're not, we're never like with, with and with anything. Right. Whenever we work on ourself, like there's always a chance for a setback regardless of what it is we're working on.

And I think that's where what helped me is like, I'm just working on myself. I'm just trying to. You know, get better coping skills. I'm trying to de-stress from my job. I'm trying to learn how to do some of these things, and that's all I'm doing. Yes, alcohol is present and that's, that's an issue.

But, this is me just working on myself and there's nothing wrong with that. Right? Yeah. Uh, I used to joke that, yeah, I have to, oh, I can't go to the, I can't start back at the gym yet. I need to get in shape [00:42:00] before I can go to the gym. Like, right? I mean, no, it's like, I gotta go to the gym in order to get in shape.

It's like, no, you just gotta work on yourself. And, you know, everybody's on their own journey and everybody has that thing that they're working on, uh, that they don't wanna share with somebody else and all that. So it's like, you know, nobody can, you know, if you get judgment, there's plenty of people out there who will support you, especially in this space, whether it's on Reframe, whether it's on sober Instagram, whether it's, you know, wherever that you, you can find that, there's plenty of people who do understand and that you can get support from if you aren't getting it as well. It, uh, yeah. In in your personal life.

Jessica: Yeah. And you know, the other thing too is like there's no finish line in, especially on an alcohol free track, but even a cutback track, like there is no such thing as a finish line.

So there, the idea of picking a random number of days or whatever to then share your story with others, it's like, oh, there's always gonna be [00:43:00] something to improve on. Like, always.

Kevin: Yeah I know I'm just hit four years alcohol free and I'm still working on things. I can still see behaviors like whether it's procrastination, avoidance, uh, uh, anxiety about certain things like that I used to drink at, and now I just don't drink at it, but I'm still dealing with them and I'm dealing with them in better ways.

So where would you recommend people start, if they wanted to start on a alcohol free path, if they wanted to start cutting back their alcohol consumption? Are those two recommendations different? Like whether you're cutting back or cutting out? Um, but, but where would you recommend people start?

If they're like, I don't know where to go, I don't know what to do. Where would you go to look?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, the very first thing that I would do, let's say someone is looking, especially alcohol free, I would always suggest go to the doctor only because, you know, [00:44:00] everybody's alcohol consumption is different and not everybody is that forthcoming with how much they have been drinking.

So it is good to just make sure that everything is in order and that if you're going alcohol free, that you're doing it safely. So I do always like make that recommendation, um, because, you know, I say I wouldn't have safely transitioned without medication. So not medical advice. I'm not saying what to take, et cetera, but I would always say check in with the doctor.

Um, but I think like, step one, same thing as coming back from a setback. It's just getting started. And again, it's connect with one other human to share what your intentions are, at least one other human, whether it's a trusted friend, a mentor, et cetera. Or going into a meeting space or finding a coach that you wanna work with.

You know, whatever the space may be like after you're, like you've said, being honest with yourself that you need to do this change. Um, find another human to share that you need to make this change with someone who's gonna be supportive. So that to me [00:45:00] is always the first step. And then after that, it's like actually like planning for it, right?

So like if you know that you always drank at a certain time, what are, what is going to be like your replacement? What are you gonna do instead of drinking? Um, what was the function of your drinking? Right? Different people drink for different reasons. Some people trying to escape. Some people drink for entertainment, some people drink cause they're bored, et cetera.

So what was the function of the alcohol and what are you gonna do instead of drink that's going to serve that same function but not be alcohol? Right? So I feel like there's kind of like a group of questions. So first, find another human. Second, what will be your replacements? And then third, like have a plan for if you have the setback of practicing kindness and doing some serious reflection, you know, as to why the setback happened.

But that's basically what I would tell anybody who's getting started.

Kevin: Yeah. That's great. Especially the planning for it, like [00:46:00] recognizing our triggers, recognizing the things that might set off a craving, uh, recognizing the reason why we might reach for that drink. What are we trying to accomplish with that?

Right? Yeah. Because you know, inevitably we reach for that drink, we for a reason, right? It's not because, oh, I want this drink, it's because I want to. Unwind. I want to forget, I want to relax. I want to, you know, socialize with people and this is how I've always done it, so therefore this is what, you know, makes sense to me.

And, and this is what I'll try. This is what I'll keep doing. But, and that's where it, it can be awkward whenever we do show up in these new, spaces or in the old spaces trying to show up in a new way. You know, how do you tell people to, um, find comfort or to kind of get used to it, you know? And whether it's socializing or just in your own space.

Any thoughts of how people can show up in old spaces in this new way, you [00:47:00] know, cuz we fear judgment or anxiety about what people might say or things like that. Any suggestions that you recommend?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I would say if you're showing up in spaces with people who know you from how you used to drink, um, it will serve you best to have conversations in advance. So, a, they're prepared. B, if you don't wanna do that, be prepared for people to have questions. And so you need to have your answers ready.

So it might be bs, wishy-washy answers that at least you can throw at them. So maybe it's, oh, like if you're not ready to have a real conversation about what you're doing in terms of your intentions, you can say, oh, I'm on an antibiotic. Oh, I'm on, you know, a diet whatever the case may be. You can say something like that, oh, I'm on a 30 day health kick, so I'm cutting out alcohol for 30 days.

Even if you're thinking that you're never gonna drink again. But you don't need to say that in that very moment, if the purpose of that moment is just getting you through that meal without a drink. Right. So I would say, Um, either a, like I said, have [00:48:00] a conversation in advance. If you're not comfortable with having that conversation in advance.

Be prepared for people to ask questions if you are not drinking when they're used to seeing you drink. Um, but also understand that like no is a complete answer, right? Like, no, I'm not drinking. That's perfectly fine too. And the other thing I'll say is also like, ask yourself, do I have to even show up to this space?

Right? Like, we don't have to keep doing everything that we used to do when we drank and just force ourselves to do it alcohol free. Like this is a good time to explore if spaces that we used to show up in are actually really even spaces that we care for. Um, and we discover that sometimes that we don't like the things that we thought we did, it's just that we tried to make them tolerable.

Kevin: Yeah, instead of forcing yourself to go to happy hour, actually go do something that'll make you happy. Like, what is that thing? Yeah. Like find that other thing, uh, that's out there.

So just a couple, couple more quick, quick questions and then I, I can let you go.

[00:49:00] But, uh, uh, just in general wondering, uh, what's something you're excited about now that you're doing either personally, professionally, anything that stands out to you?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I would say on a personal level, I'm in a relationship now and it's really nice to be in a relationship and not have any secrets about or shame about, like where I've been, what I've done, and like what I've dealt with.

Um, that's been really, incredibly free and it's been challenging, but I'm very grateful to face this challenge without alcohol making anything more complicated than it needs to be. So that's something that I'm really excited, you know, on a personal level. And then on a professional level, you know, it's just been really exciting to be, you know, in online communities, facilitating recovery spaces, showing up, um coaching, like all of that has just been really wonderful. And like balancing that with dipping my toe back in [00:50:00] education has been really cool. So I would say, um, you know, now that I'm back in education on a college campus, it's like I've, in my interview, that was the first thing I led with. I was like, you know, I'm, I'm into this college position and I'm interested in it because I'm in recovery.

And I think like that'll be really good for the students to like, have an adult. I mean, they're legally adults too, but you know, having a real adult who is open about their recovery. And so like starting in the spring, I mean in the fall semester, I will be facilitating in-person support group meetings on campus for the university, um, which is something that they've never had, like they have.

Um, they have a wellness department and they have like a drug and alcohol abuse, like counselor who's not in recovery. They're just a counselor, a therapist. So to have someone in recovery, creating a space for people in recovery to show up, that's gonna be really cool. So I'm very excited to be able to do what I've been doing online and apply it at work too.

Kevin: That's awesome. Yeah, that's great to [00:51:00] have that again, like you said, like that ther that therapist, that counselor, you know, isn't in that space. It's a, it's very different right. Whenever you've been through it and on, on, on both ends it's gonna be helpful. Um, What's something you're currently working on on your own journey?

Like anything in particular that you, I know I go through these constant kind of evolutions and recalibrations as far as like what I'm, what works for me and, and trying to tweak things here and there. Anything that you're working on.

Jessica: Yeah, so, you know, and it came up yesterday in the speaker share meeting.

Um, one of the things I recently started working with a dietician who's also does nutritional coaching, on my relationship with food, because it's always been problematic but alcohol, obviously I can't deal, I had to wait until alcohol was totally under control before I can start like doing further personal development.

So I've been working on that because, you know, that's some major healing work that needs to happen that I just haven't had the time [00:52:00] to really focus on. And so now that's kind of been like my next thing. So, um, I'm really excited about this next step, you know, and it, and again, I, it wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't stopped drinking, but now that I haven't been drinking, I can Yeah just focus on everything else too.

Kevin: Yeah that's great. Um, and then last question. Um, you know, and, and this could be a, a rehash of what we've, you know, already discussed here, but, if someone were listening to this episode and this was their, you know, they, they're sitting there telling themselves like, I.

I need to make a change. Well, you know, whatever that change is, I need to cut back. I need to quit. Um, how would you suggest they start to reframe their relationship with alcohol?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, what I would actually say there is probably like, okay, you want to change your relationship. What are you willing to do?

And then for the things that they're not willing to do, I would [00:53:00] challenge them. Why aren't you willing to do it? And then for, have them kind of like really ask themselves those questions because you know, again, there's a big difference between wanting and willing and becoming willing is gonna be the really big important thing there.

So definitely doing some work or journaling around that.

Kevin: Yeah, I like that. Uh, That question, but why? Like, and just, you can just keep asking that over and over again. Like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not ready to tell those people, but why not? Like, and, and then well, you know, it's, and then they might answer it.

Okay, well, but why, like, what's, yeah, you can drill down to a lot of different levels there. Um, and it's the same thing like with, you know, why asking yourself, like, what is that reason why you are looking to make a change? Why are you questioning it now? What you know, was there something that happened?

Is there something that's where, how it's showing up that you don't like? Um, and continuing to, you know, keep that in the forefront too. Like, this is important enough for me [00:54:00] to think about this and make this, want to make this change. You know, because it's easy to kind of forget that over time, if we do start to make that change, we feel better.

And it's like, oh, well, was that really a big deal? Well, it was big enough for you to think about it in the first place. So how can you, uh, Kind of keep that at the forefront and keep working on that. Yeah.

Jessica, thank you so much for joining us today. If you'd like to, uh, share where people can find you and, uh, and we'll show, share that in the show notes too.

But, uh, yeah, if you wanna let people know where they can find you and

Jessica: Yeah. So easiest way to find me. So Instagram, my handle is first name, last name 24, my birthday, so Jessica Dueñas 24. And then my website that has, you know, an email list, my blog, just other resources is bottom less to sober.com. So those are the two easiest ways to find me.

Kevin: Awesome. Thank you so much for being on the [00:55:00] Reframeable podcast and we'll talk again soon, I'm sure.

Jessica: Yes. All right. Thanks,

Kevin.

Bye