Kevin: Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframeable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass.

My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app. As of this recording, I'm coming up on four years alcohol free, and you can go say hi to me in the app or over on Instagram at the sober ginger. Today we will talk with Dana Krull. Dana is a fellow Reframer and former army infantry officer and chaplain who struggled with alcohol after leaving the military.

After discovering the Reframe app, he was able to go alcohol free and he started his own podcast called I Kissed Alcohol Goodbye, to Keep himself accountable and to inspire others. [00:01:00]

As always, this podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. And with all that being said, let's go chat with Dana.

Welcome everybody to Theam podcast. My name is Kevin. With me today is Dana Krull.

Dana: Hey, welcome Dana. It's going great. Thanks so much for having me. I'm honored to be here. Yeah. Thanks for

Kevin: being on. , really appreciate it. I, I enjoyed being on your podcast, uh, this past fall. Great to catch up with you then.

Dana: And likewise, always great to talk with you.

It's good that, yeah, we, especially now that I'm like a total reframer and working, so like now that we can slack with each other, things are even to the ne next level.

Kevin: Yes, we can slack with each other and as we were just talking about the slack notification messages and the issues that we have in our, with those and the constant [00:02:00] aggravation.

Yeah, "Da ta ta", which as I told you, and anybody else who has slack, you could always change it to "Hummus"

Dana: the tone, which I did not know and I'm gonna have to do. Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah. It, it makes it, it makes my life so much happier, just hearing that every time I get a message versus the other one, the normal "brush knock" or whatever it's called.

Um, but we're not here to Yeah. Talk about slack. Sorry. Thank you for being on and I just wanted to see if you wanted to kick it off here and tell us a little bit about, or a lot about things.

Dana: Yeah, man, I mean, I, so I'm like your walking stereotype of late 20th century, American, white male, middle income, Midwestern, raised as a Christian and, grew up, in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. And, was the son of a blue collar dad. I called him a brown collar dad cuz he, you know, he had a brown collar job because he worked at the wastewater treatment plant. But, uh, provided very well for our family.

You know, we lived humbly, we didn't li [00:03:00] have a lot, but my, um, and my mom worked in sales and in middle management, but neither of them had been to college. And it was a big American dream thing for them to get, get me to go to, to help me equip me to go to college. And so they got me in a college prep school, very prestigious.

And I'm the ordinary, I'm kind of your token blue collar kid going to school with, millionaires kids., and that was good. But it just created, you know, this, uh, sense of great expectations and, I had a lot of very standard experiences there when it came to alcohol and drugs. Like, tried it probably the first time when I was 14.

Um, I tried SW smoking marijuana a few times. I'm very grateful, that I didn't have an agreeable experience with that. Um, probably like most of the times that I tried it. But, you know, just sneaking around with booze, in freshman year becomes, uh, by senior year I wore it like a badge of honor that.

You know, I had drank every, uh, weekend in the fall, even though I was like, on, on the golf team and I was student council president and your classic like brown-nosing, perfectionistic people [00:04:00] pleasing, overachiever, uh, but still was, trying to hang out with the cool kids and drink and run around and, do fun stuff.

But I, I remember the first time that I, uh, realized that I need to stop drinking as much, was on like Christmas break in my senior year. I woke up hungover at my buddy's house and I was like, man, I feel like crap and I gotta stop doing this. So I started running a couple miles every morning and I think I took a couple months off of drinking.

And so, Yeah. Like, but it wasn't, I mean, I went to, I went to a very big party school. If you're on the video, you can say I'm wearing an Ohio University alumni hat, uh, which is in, you know, Kevin is in Ohio and so he knows it's in Athens, Ohio. Big Halloween party there every year. It's a kin to Mardi Gras.

And it's a big party school. It's a great school too. The shame is like, it's actually a very good academic institution, but, most people when they think of ou think of the Halloween and, um, just other, things like r one year there was like riots because, uh, on the time change on d, daylight savings time, cuz the, [00:05:00] because the bars closed an hour early and so, Just all these like, urban legends of ou.

And so I drank a lot there. I was part of Army R O T C. So I was on a scholarship for tuition and then the army was paying for the rest on room and board. And I was getting, indoctrinated into a different, you know, a whole nother level of, you know, alcohol as part of our social way to socialize and to hang out.

Which, interestingly did not continue into the army for me. Like I nine 11 happened at the beginning of my, uh, senior year of college. And, it sobered me up in a way. May I remember. I, I still drank a lot my senior year, but it was sobering in the, uh, with the realization that I was gonna go to war.

When I started R O T C as a cadet in 1998 and through 2001, it was like, you know, I'm gonna commission as an officer. I'll go be in the Army for a few years, and then I'll figure out what to do with the rest of my life. I thought I might want to go on and be a jag, like go get my JD and stay in the Army as a lawyer or something.

Yeah.[00:06:00] But, the Army saw fit to, uh, direct me to the infantry. To this day, I'm convinced that nine 11, um, changed the path of my life. I, I had actually petitioned to become an aviation officer. I wanted to fly helicopters, but then, um, I had submitted that dream sheet to the Pentagon the week before nine 11, and then I'm told, I.

That the plane that hit the Pentagon actually hit cadet command. And so our commissioning year was all screwed up. Whereas normally we would find out what we were gonna do in the military as officers in like December, January, and then we would find out where we're gonna go be stationed in like February.

It was like, we didn't even find out what we were gonna do until March because every, and you know, the Army's trying to figure out where we're gonna send everybody to go fight the, fight these wars. Uh, so I knew I was gonna go to Iraq and I did after I finished my infantry officer basic course in ranger school.

Um, part of what I wanted to say earlier was I sobered up, like while I was at my infantry officer basic course, and I had met, my wife and we started dating and she's one of the unicorns at OU that didn't drink. Um, I met her while I was [00:07:00] there, but, uh, she, yeah, she was like, one of, she's the one, the one maybe the one person I knew at OU that didn't drink.

And I ended up marrying her and it was a good thing, uh, because while all my buddies were running around, you know, before ranger school when we actually would have time on the weekends and stuff, like guys would be running around still kind of chasing college girls and getting drunk.

It's kinda like a fifth year of college sort of thing before reality set in. But I, I, that fall had really, I started consulting with an army chaplain that was there at Fort Benning, Georgia, where I was training and you know, I'm like, man, my dad had died when I was 19.

He died of lung cancer. And so we were best friends and so I was just, I really wanted to be a husband and father one day and I realized like, I can't keep drinking like this or I'm not gonna be able to, um, I gotta, I gotta walk the walk basically, if I'm talking the talk, I gotta walk the walk. And so, went off to Iraq in 2003, came home and was too busy to drink.

And, had really, I can count on one hand the number of times that bullets flew and things were hairy for me. I mean, maybe it's more than that, but, you [00:08:00] know, I tend to compare myself to my peers who were there for the invasion and who fought in house to house fighting in Fallujah in 2004. I was there during, you know, six, my seven months in Iraq in 2003, where a lot of hearts and minds, a lot of presence patrols where we didn't get shot at.

And, there were some hairy times up in Mosul after, Ramadan, uh, that year, the insurgency really started to get some legs underneath it in late 2003. And so I did see some things. Um, but when I got home I was too busy as a newlywed. Addie and I got married in 2004. When I got back and we were getting ready for the next deployment, like right away.

And it was for the first time, you know, you might think like, we were actually excited about it as a cohort of officers, it was like the opportunity to go back to combat had not happened since Vietnam for a junior officer, uh, to get two combat tours where you could go back as a captain and share what you learned as a lieutenant.

That really hadn't happened except for maybe a handful of guys who went to say like Panama and Desert [00:09:00] Storm. So we really started to, uh, we were just focused on that and right before, what would've been my second deployment, Iraq, I had a heat stroke injury. Which was just from a Monday morning run.

I had taken some P sudafed for, uh, head cold freak, head cold. I never get sick, and I got sick in the summer. But, uh, when you run an 80 degree temperature and you take an a vasoconstrictor, it, it tends to screw up. And I had 107 points. Yeah, a little bit. So, yeah, a little bit. Um, I, the docs told me if I hadn't been in great shape, that I, I might've died.

I might've had brain damage, uh, or, you know, internal organ damage. But I had 107.6 core temp when they got me to the clinic. And, uh, I was delirious, thought I was gonna die. The only thing I knew was my name, where I was, or that I was in, in the Army, and that Addie was my wife and that I was about to die.

And so I had this real like, kind of stereotypical deathbed experience where I didn't see the tunnel of vision or tunnel of light and have this envision of the angelic host or anything. But I thought I was gonna die. And, um, my life did change that day cuz when I, when I came [00:10:00] to and realized that I was gonna live the army was like, Hey bud, you're not going back to the Middle East because you can have another heat in heat incident just in Kuwait before you even get into Iraq.

And so I was heartbroken, but I was left home as a, what's called a rear detachment commander. and uh, takes care of the skeleton crew of soldiers that stay back who are either injured or they're pending discharged from the army cuz they're, they've done something criminal or whatever. It's really a band of misfits and nobody wants this assignment.

Um, but during this year, um, it it's, it's basically like doing chaplain work. I was caring for the wounded, burying the dead. I was making notifications to family members of their. Loved ones being wounded or killed. And so I was already really kind of doing army chaplain work and so I felt called to ministry and our little church off the base had been in between pastors.

And so they asked me to preach and teach some. And when the new pastor got there, he's like, you're feeling called to ministry, aren't you? And I'm like, yes, I am. And so, um, my commander supported me leaving active duty to go to seminary as a chaplain candidate. And I did that from [00:11:00] 2007 to 2009 and made it back on active duty in 2010 in time for the Afghanistan surge.

So I sat on the sidelines for several years and it was like chomping at the bit to go back to combat and got the chance to go in the surge in 2010 with a unit that was in Kandahar. And I was a support battalion chaplain, uh, where we had a role two combat support hospital. So I wasn't out doing Foot patrols with the guys, as a grunt this time I was with the supporters, uh, back on the forward operating base, but we saw plenty of bad stuff in the, uh, in the clinic that year and, uh, buried, a lot or, had a lot of memorial ceremonies. But here still for about this 10 year period in here that I have been talking about, like, I, I wasn't drinking.

I was too busy to drink. And part of it was the religious aspect of it. I was from a denomination that didn't forbid alcohol per se, but really kind of frowned on it. And so I was too busy and seminary Okay. And as a National Guard chaplain candidate, and I'm like, I just, I know my, what I'm like when I drink.

And so I, I just didn't, [00:12:00] but After that long afg Afghanistan deployment this is where like I, because I was a prior infantry officer and ranger officer, or a ranger qualified officer, I was sent to ranger units, uh, to be the chaplain there. And I, I made it until, uh, my second deployment. I, I think about the time that I was at my second deployment to Afghanistan with third ranger battalion, which is the legendary unit that I was very honored to be a part of.

Um, same unit that was in Mogadishu in 1993 when I was deployed with them in 2013 they had a mass casualty on almost exactly the 20 year anniversary of Mogadishu and I was there, uh, not on target with them, but they're in the aftermath, uh, and, uh, ministered to them. And it was situations like that that I, I think I just started to compound.

And, I started just having a beer at night. Uh, once I was home from that deployment, started having a beer at night to sort of unwind. Um, and my wife called it, she said it and it was a beer or two at most, but she called it and she said 10 years ago now, if you're not careful, you're gonna [00:13:00] have a drinking problem when you get out.

And we thought that would be a long time from now. With that I was gonna stay in for a career. But, very long story made very short. I had a change of faith and I was a Protestant minister, but our family became Catholic, so that meant that I couldn't continue as an ordained minister as a chaplain.

And so I had to resign my commission and I went back to the National Guard as an infantry officer for a couple years cause we thought that would. Helped transition out. Um, it actually made things worse. I was basically put into a company command position right away that I shouldn't have accepted.

And, our marriage was just under so much strain and I was trying to figure out how to be civilian, uh, a after so many years of being on a, on and off of active duty. And, uh, then we got tapped for deployment and I was like, man, I'm gonna spend another year away from my family. And I just, I wasn't in a place where I could do that.

I relinquished the command, which is something that I had never seen anybody do, uh, let alone a ranger, uh, officer to do that. And so I carried with me and still carry with me a lot of, I still wrestle with the [00:14:00] shame of that even though it was the right decision for my family. This is where the alcohol really started to, thanks for bearing with me with the big, like story of my life leading up to it.

Um, but this is where the alcohol really started to. To take, take a hold in 20 15, 20 16. Uh, when I had left active duty definitely by the time, I, had left the military altogether in 2017. I was drinking at least a couple a day. My first civilian job was at Lowe's. I was an, you know, assistant store manager there.

And, uh, my nickname on the sales floor was Spazz. Uh, because as you can surmise by how fast I talk and just kind of my demeanor, even through a podcast, the listeners are probably gonna hear how wind up tight I am. And, uh, this is calm me actually like, I'm, you know,

Kevin: I was gonna say, I mean, I don't think you're a spazz right now!  I think you're pretty calm.

Dana: Good. Well, this is Calm Dana. So you can imagine what spazz Dana is like. Um, And, and I was drinking, you know, a couple when I got home from work to unwind, but then it would be a few every once in a [00:15:00] while, and then it would be , I, I could justify that third one on a regular basis.

Or I was counting number of nights a week, well, I'm only really drinking on the weekends, or, you know, doing this math and doing this rationalization that, yeah, so many drinkers do. And, I'm started having trouble sleeping. I started going to the VA for counseling, but then just a series of crazy things just happened vocationally that I won't go into.

The retail management thing wasn't for me, so I decided to go. I had the opportunity to run the soup kitchen for our church, which is in downtown Columbus, big inner city soup kitchen. And my fight or flight was activated there every single day. It was just, It was not the right job for me.

I mean, I was, I got sucker punched one day there and had my job broken, um, because our police officer wasn't there. And I let a guy get too close to me. And so, you know, there's shame and humiliation with that. And then I. Very long story made very short. Like the church made the decision to shut the soup kitchen down during Covid because of some building maintenance issues.

And it wasn't really covid related, but it [00:16:00] wa it was just very, I I basically, I was told you, you're not gonna work here anymore. And even though I had planned to leave anyway, cuz it wasn't the right fit for me, it just really hurt, uh, kind of the way it was handled. And I had this mental break where I, I, by this point I was drinking several a day.

And it was spiking to eight to 10 or even a case every once in a while, like, um, and it was bad. And I forgot to mention, I was in grad school full-time throughout this whole period, this period trying to get a master's which I did get in creative writing because I wanted to become a writer.

Which I now get to do for Reframe. So all things like get redeemed and work out eventually, but oh my God, this was like a soap opera man. Exactly. It was like a bad country song about a train wreck into a dumpster fire, man. Like, it just, it's, I I feel like it's days of our lives stuff here. because it's like every time you turn around it's like, oh yeah, and I was doing this and I was doing this, and that was, that's what

Dana: I always did in the Army.

The Army's always just had me going so [00:17:00] fast that I didn't know how to not go Yeah. Fast. And, um, I, I've really struggled in civilian life to, to find, uh, an environment where I can be surrounded by people who care as much as, this is gonna sound really condescending, but I just like the army, everybody cared about what they were doing.

Um, I mean, a handful of people didn't, but then they were like quietly ushered away. Uh, everybody was there for the same thing. It's the minority and we had a common mission and everybody worked hard and I've just struggled to find that in civilian life. And so all these series of jobs were very, discouraging, demoralizing for me.

And right when I had started to reach out to the VA and say, I need to go to some sort of recovery service. Like, I had this mental breakdown last day in my job at the soup kitchen. I had concocted this crazy plan while I was drunk the night before that I booked a plane ticket, a train ticket, a bus ticket, and I rented a car at like two or three in the morning.

And I said, when I leave work tomorrow, I'm gonna pick one and I'm gonna leave. And they were all to different places and it [00:18:00] was like I was gonna go off the grid. I was gonna try to do this like cat and mouse, this very crazy, uh, thing. They actually screamed me for bipolar cuz they thought I had a bipolar episode then.

And I, they ruled that out. It wa wasn't that because I had, they thought it might have been like a manic episode, but I drove to work still buzzed to my job at the church, right Last day at the church. I, yeah, the soup kitchen. At the soup kitchen, which didn't really exist we were just feeding and even now they're still feeding people.

It's just outta the back of the church. It just got really down to the basics. Like, here's a sandwich and some waters. Maybe they're doing more now, but I, I really was, I don't know, it was kind of like a what's the right term? I wasn't really overseeing any, anything and it was my last day to be there.

And, I bought a burner phone. I had my passport and $2,000 in my pocket. I was ready to leave. And my buddy who was a veteran who was our police officer that day, totally disabled vet who, I mean, like had his back broken when he was blown up in Hellman Province in Afghanistan, had his buddy die next to him.

Kind of that whole [00:19:00] story. And he knew the signs and he was like, Hey man, are you okay? Because you're, something's not right. And I like, totally spilled the beans. And he got me to, the ER and they got me to the VA where I went to a VA hospital where I spent several days and then went through some recovery in the summer of 2020.

And oh my God, I've been talking for 15 or 20 minutes here and I don't know like where you want me to stop, but basically that was the point where I, I where I, I stopped drinking on my own for about a year, summer of 2020 to summer of 2021. But I was doing it by myself.  

Kevin:  Well I was gonna ask earlier on what the, you know, was there like a push?

Was there something that you, cuz you were talking about how it went from, hey, I'm drinking, you know, one or two a night to, to three, and was it a gradual buildup or. Was it like a lot of these things just compounding and, and the stress building up and that's where, that's when it started getting to 10 or a [00:20:00] case or, or

Dana: whatever.

Uh, that number, I think it was progressive. Yeah. I think it, I think it was both. It, it was progressive. Like as the stress increased, as I switched from one job to the next, I'm like, okay, this is the right job. And then I like, wouldn't drink as much, but then because of the nature of, uh, me, yeah.

My, the story of my life has been like, oh, this guy shows up. He's high energy, he's good with people. He understands systems, he gets shit done. So let's put him in, uh, a difficult job. And that, and I just always said yes, because in the army you don't say no. Until I said, no,

Kevin: Here's a difficult job. Oh, he does well at it. Here's more here. Let's throw this other difficult job on top of it. And then this one and, , yeah, we don't know. I mean, I'm similar, obviously different, but similar with, uh, I've never said no. I was like, oh, you corporate

Dana: culture's. Yeah. I don't care about whatever else. I, corporate culture's just like, I mean, the Army's a corporation too, so I mean, it's, it runs very similarly.

Yeah. And so, yeah. Um, yeah, it was a progressive thing and I, I think, you know, I had friends and [00:21:00] family members being like, Hey man, you really should ease off. But I was doing things out of character. Like I, well, that's why I told my, I told my trauma psychologist one time from the VA said, I feel like I'm out of character.

Meaning like, like I'm doing things that are out of character, but I've also literally do not have character anymore. It's like I was driving to work intoxicated, like it was, this is like, are you kidding? I never thought that I would do something like that, but I was. And so in that summer of 2020 to summer 2021, I had unemployment benefits, thankfully was doing some day trading with, stimulus funny money, like a lot of people did.

And I was making a ton of money until I wasn't, cuz I turned into a gambler and lost it all and then some. And so I started getting depressed about that. We had some extended family drama that happened that was very I say extended family, but it was like family that was really, really close to, uh, there was a falling out.

And it just, all those things I used as them as an excuse to start drinking again in the summer of 2021. I had to go back to work. I think that's what it was. It was like, well, I screwed [00:22:00] up. I've screwed up all these jobs. Even though I hadn't necessarily screwed them up, I felt like I had failed as a retail manager.

I failed as a soup kitchen director. I've failed as a day trader. Yeah. I failed as an army officer cuz I relinquish the command and all these things that I'm telling myself. I just picked up a job. I, my wife and I had role reversed. We've always homeschooled our kids But I asked her when I had lost my job, I said could I teach the boys?

Could I try? So she went back to work while I stayed home on unemployment for a while, and then had the day trading thing until that didn't work. And then it was like, shit, I gotta go back to work. So I found a job at up s that where I thought it would be just a few hours in the morning before I teach the boys.

It turned out that was like a union bait and switch where it wasn't four or five hours a day. It was eight or nine hours a day and six days a week instead of five. And you know it. And so I quit that. I went to Amazon on a different time schedule. I was working 11:00 PM to 4:00 AM but all throughout this period I'm drinking more.

And I kept thinking, when I went to Amazon, it was like, well, I, if I usually drink late at [00:23:00] night or I have to go to work late at night, that'll keep me from drinking. It didn't keep me from drinking, I just drank at 4:00 AM when I got home from slinging boxes, right? When, yeah. And so here I am homeschool dad of the year, waking up groggy.

Never taught my kids drunk, thankfully. At least I didn't do that. Uh, but, you know, waking up, feeling hungover and trying to be a husband and a father and a homeschool dad, and like setting in this horrible example for, we have three sons. Finally in the midst of this and marital stresses through the roof.

And, the way the army trains you to deal with conflict at home is to break contact. It's so funny. Like, you know, we train our soldiers to move to the sound of the guns. Like there's, there's a gunfight, you move towards it. Right? But when it comes to conflict with your spouse, yeah. You don't stay there, you leave because they don't want you to escalate it. And so my reflex has always been to leave. Yeah. And so I was at the point where I had left the house. And was tricking myself. Like I, I say I went to have this fling with my mistress for a few days [00:24:00] at a local motel while I was going to work at the, at the warehouse at night.

And, things were so bad I just had given up. That was in February of 2022, is where I'm talking about now. Thanks for bearing with my all over the place timeline. But, um, in January, first week of January, 2022, I had downloaded Reframe, uh, because I knew I, I guess it was a New Year's resolution sort of thing.

But, you know, I had found an excuse to drink again by the end of January and then it got even worse and I then I was drinking like, yeah, 10 or 12 a day and it was really bad. And then I'm away from the house and drinking, going to work drunk slinging boxes at Amazon. Like it is just shameful stuff that I never thought I'd do.

But what I had done on Reframe was I started tuning into some of the daily check-ins, which back then were like three o'clock was the mm-hmm. Uh, cutback and three 30 was the quit. Right? And there were like, what, 50, 60 people in them. But um, yeah and now it's like quintupled that or whatever, and their hour long meetings.

It's amazing to see how [00:25:00] it's. Hour

Kevin: long with like 202. It's mind blowing

Dana: to see how it's blossomed in the last year. And it's because it works. I don't wanna sound too sales pitchy for Reframe. This is a Reframe podcast, so I will say Reframe. Yeah. It works for me and it, and it still works for me.

Because it got me connected to a community. I stopped trying to stop drinking on my own. And I recognized as I heard people tell their stories I'm not as unique as I thought. Like I, yeah, maybe people don't have the exact story I have with the Army, you know, and the, yeah, whatever. I mean, I'm certainly not the only veteran that's struggled that's left active duty in, in the National Guard.

But the unique particulars maybe of my story, people don't have, but the commonalities are there in terms of the addiction and the behavior patterns and the self-destructive way of thinking and acting. And I thought I was the, I thought I was such a piece of shit, like manipulative monster for self sabotaging like I did, but I discovered like plenty of other people do that and it doesn't make sense.

But you're [00:26:00] nodding right now as I say that because you, you get it. Like, and everybody who's on those calls gets it. Yeah. Uh, it's,

Kevin: yeah. Every, every person I hear share whether it's on, on, you know, in our community, Outside of our community, like reading books, reading stories, listening to podcasts, listening to just other people talk.

I mean, I, I can always pull some similarity or some commonality to just a thought. Yeah. We might be totally different people, but I understand like where you're coming from Yeah. From with that perspective of, you know, when an alcohol is concerned or Yeah. That stress. So, and it's so important to get that

Dana: connection and, and I mean, I'm a big extrovert who's always thrived off of connections, but I had gone into this hole where, I don't wanna say an introverted hole cuz that'll make it sound like introverts are bad. I'm married to an introvert and I'm very glad that I am because if I married someone who's as extroverted as me, oh my God. Like it would be that, that would be very interesting. Yeah. That's, uh, relationship. So she definitely [00:27:00] is the, the yin to my yang. And, and I've learned so much from her. About recharging and about spending that quality time by myself.

But I had gone to, to a very toxic alone place, which was very misanthropic. I don't trust people, I don't wanna be around people anymore. And I hated everyone and I hated myself and, you know, was just in this hole. But it was in that place, in that deep dark hole where I had started to give up. I had tried to keep a, a happy face on for all these years after leaving the army and finally like my optimism just ran out and I just got a bad case of the fucks and was like, well, apparently this is where I. You know, I went from hero to zero and this is where I'm gonna have my meltdown.

And I just was drinking myself further and further into hole and was, and on the verge of probably doing something very stupid that could have been life changing for me or other people that I had hurt and certainly was changing and hurting the people that I love the most here at home but it was in that place that I met these people on Reframe one of whom shared her very bravely, extrovertedly, shared her, [00:28:00] uh, her phone number in the chat one day in one of the check-in meetings, and she's like, Hey if anybody wants to check in.

And she had been a very. Big inspiration for me and still is, uh, she's like my big sister and she's about 10 days ahead of me she stopped drinking in early February, 2022, and I'm in the middle of the month. So she was just a little bit ahead of me and I kept looking forward to her shares and stuff.

And so when I, I texted her one day and just thanked her for that and she's like, listen, I'm putting you in this group with these other ladies and me. And so like, I have this text group to this day of several ladies that are all my big sisters, except for one, I think I've got her by a couple years, but I look up to her like a big sister.

And so they're very protective of me and have been so clutch and so key throughout those first weeks, months, and now year, cuz I'm at about 13 months as of this recording. Uh, and so that's the Reframe just made all the difference for me in just getting connected and, and reconnecting to the world, just reconnecting to other people.

It was something that I didn't want to do, but that I knew I needed to. And when I started to, it started working again.

[00:29:00] Yeah.

Kevin: You paid that forward then too, because I know not only the podcast, not only your Instagram account, but doing what she did with, Hey, here's my number, whatever, but hey, here is my Instagram. Let me know if anybody wants to get connected in a group.

And you were putting people in group chats together, which was a lifeline for a lot of people. Yeah, I'm sure. And, you know, building that connection, building that community. But, but it just shows that it can come from anywhere. It can come from in-person meeting, it can come from over the internet, over Zoom, over Instagram, over, you know, whatever that might be just a, a text or a call can, can make all the Yeah.

Dana: You never. Yeah, what do you know? Thoughts, like you're gonna say just by, just by putting yourself out there and, and saying something kind to a stranger? I mean, as cliche as this sounds, we all are, especially people who drink, are so good at putting on a good, a happy face and making it seem like everything's okay.

But really right underneath the surface there's so much turmoil. And so, just reaching out to someone, if you're early in sobriety and you're feeling down and [00:30:00] feeling rep, like, one of the best things you can do for yourself is just reach out to somebody else and try to see if they're okay, see if you can keep in touch with them.

Or just be available even just like, Hey, can we exchange phone numbers? I don't think I've met a single person in, in person yet from Reframe or from my Instagram, the thousands of people I've met on Instagram that inspire me and like, and I trust all of them, like more than I trust a lot of people that I've known my entire life.

The only type of connection I've ever felt this closely with people was in the Army. And it's the connection that I've missed the most. And that was part of the reason that I've been drinking, is because we just, I mean, I still to this day, dream about the army every night. And they're not bad dreams.

They're, except that I'm leaving. The theme of the dream is always that I'm leaving and these are my people. And I'm around rangers and I'm like, man, these are my brothers and I just wanna be with them. So I finally found that community that I needed, that I was desperately longing for around other people who knew that I had to drink myself into the, [00:31:00] like, absolute rock bottom in order for something to come up. Yeah. I had been striving and striving and working and trying, saying this next job will be the right thing. This will be the right fit. And just nothing worked and finally at the last minute Reframe to the rescue, I guess I just, I'm glad I chose it out of the list of, I mean, I'm sure all the apps work work well, it's, the idea is just pick an app. Yeah. Like, and do something. But, you know, reframe definitely worked. Yeah. Has worked for me and, uh, yeah.

Connecting with others via Instagram. Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah, back in 2019 when I started on my journey, it was an app too. Yeah. It was better help. So it was getting a therapist, but I was like one, one drunken night on my couch. Yeah. I was like, I can't keep doing this. And I got that and I got connected with somebody because for me it was just about, opening up and just

yeah. Telling somebody, somebody about the thoughts of my head. Right? Just talking

Dana: about anything. And somebody outside your circle too, right? Like somebody going back to who like is outside the bubble, I guess, so to speak. Uh, was something that was important for me. Like, I think I was expecting my wife to be able to [00:32:00] understand, uh, me and support me in a way that was very unfair to expect of her, uh, because she doesn't struggle with these things.

Yeah. , so I've, I've had all these people that I haven't met in person that I feel so close to as friends and really, I call them my sober family. And I use the term sober. Very, yeah. Broadly to include anybody who's even questioning their, uh, even curious at all about sobriety.

Um, I, I'm immediately exactly

Kevin: sober, sober, curious alcohol free,

Dana: whatever it is, person immediately right away, better than probably most of the other people I've known other than soldiers. Uh, so you were gonna say something? I think I interrupted you.

Kevin: No, that's fine. Uh, one thing I was gonna ask is so in 20, between, uh, summer of 20 and 21, whenever you went that year without drinking, you said you were just, yeah.

You were just doing it by yourself. What were some of the things like contrasting that year and then this past year of being alcohol free. What are just from your mindset point of view, like what were the, what [00:33:00] are the differences there that you,

Dana: I, I think it was, I, I was still in that place.

Um, I was in the earlier stages of that place that I described of being in that hole where I didn't trust anybody. I, I had a lot because of the family situation I had alluded to there's just a lot of scar tissue and lack of trust for people that was developing. And as a homeschool dad, um, during, well that was like towards the end of Covid, but still I was spending most of my time at home and didn't really have a desire to be around other people and really was doing okay, uh, because I was focused on the boys and I had, again, I had come out of a eight week i o p program that had equipped me with a lot of great skills.

Um, and I think because the bills were being paid and everything was okay, and I thought I was finding my niche or my role, uh, in civilian life, that was how I was getting away with just kind of doing things on my own. But again, once the finances changed and then I had to go back to work and I wasn't really in a place [00:34:00] where like working a weird shift like either. 11:00 PM to 4:00 AM or something like at UPS where it was like midnight or 1:00 AM to 9:00 AM either way, like it just wasn't working for me. And so the difference between then and now then to answer your question would be, yeah.

I found a job that I can do from home, which was a goal. Uh, that I didn't think would happen. And, um, again, my story is very heavily focused on Reframe because I ended up working for Reframe. So like e everybody understand like I'm a full disclosure. Full disclosure. Like yeah, but I found a job that I could do from home and because I'm plugged into everyone now, I have this sober family that I'm connected with every day, even though I'm home and even though I still don't go out and venture out and don't have a lot of friendships outside the house, like, um, like I had kind of envisioned for my civilian life. Now I have all these friendships virtually that are [00:35:00] that, and if people say you can't have relationships through the internet I would respectfully disagree because I've got people that I consider family that I only text with.

Um, or, you know, and, and who knows, maybe the relationship would change if I did, if I were to see them in person on a regular basis, but who knows? All I know is it's working now. The big difference between that year that I went 13 months on my own without drinking before, and I'm at 13 months right now with Reframe.

So it was like the before and after a Reframe. The difference is I've got people now that I trust and that I can connect with and who understand the addiction because I think before, yeah, the i o P was great. I had eight weeks of via Zoom. It was during, uh, COVID. Yeah. So, I didn't actually go to the place, but it was great we had those relationships for a couple months, but I didn't really stay in touch with those people. But for Reframe, it's stuck. Like the relationships that I've made here have stuck. And I think Instagram might be a lot of that glue Yeah. Too, because there, there has [00:36:00] been some overlap between Reframe and Instagram for me that's made a big difference but I don't know if that answers your question.

Kevin: Yeah. That's definitely, it's perfect, right at 13 months. 13 months right now. Um, to be able to see that and, and recognize the differences maybe they're night and day, maybe not totally night and day, but just seeing what works now. And you can still pull from, I'm sure some of your experience

Dana: that Yeah. And yeah, and now I'm a much more alert to the triggers or to the warning signs of me, not of, of me not doing well. And me, you know, not just a craving to drink, but just of me being mentally in a place where I want to run away.

Which again was the whole thing where I, every time we would have a big fight, it was like, I'm just leaving. Um, and then my whole like, crazy one where I, you know, was gonna like, leave, leave that I talked about that was the reflex. And now I'm so much more aware of those types of feelings and sensations and I'm able to think about them and [00:37:00] I'm equipped to deal with them in a different way than I was from just eight weeks with i o P, which again, I don't wanna take anything away from it. I'm very grateful the VA for sending me to that civilian run thing, which made a big difference. But Reframe is different because I can do it on my own terms. I think that might be part of it too, is I can take these bite-sized chunks as I'm ready a as I was ready and there was a lot less, there was less pressure.

With the va it was like, Hey, the government's paying for you to do this, so you have to do it. And I want, and I wanted to be there so I did it. But like with Reframe, like you can just do it a little bit at a time. You can do cutback track. You don't have to quit altogether. That was what got me at first.

Like I got me in was like, oh, you mean I, it's, I have permission to drink some. Okay, cool. Cuz all I thought about was like aa, right? Yeah. Like I have to quit and I knew deep down that I needed to quit together, but I needed some time to, to be in the middle where I was like, maybe I can moderate. And I needed to at least try that to know that it wasn't gonna work.

Um, yeah. But it just didn't work for me. Yeah.

Kevin: And if Reframe is [00:38:00] around a year and a half earlier, I would've totally been on the cutback track. I started and I was like, sure, I'll take a break but the whole time I'm sitting there talking to my therapist, like, right, but when can I drink again?

When can I drink again? What's a good time to intro reintroduce this? And that was like consuming my whole thoughts. Like I ne I still never thought, okay, this is gonna be forever or anything like that. I hated that thought because you can't wrap your head around forever, right?

I mean, it's, some people are like, Nope, I'll never drink again. And that's great if you can say that. Um, I still don't say that just cause I don't like to say that because when I'm 70, 80, if I make it that long, 90 years old, you know, any, any of those ages, I don't know what the hell I'm gonna be doing then. Uh, so I'm just like, I'm not, I know I'm not drinking now and, and that's enough.

Or even if it was just for, I. That day or that weekend or that week. Okay. Yeah.

Dana: This is, yeah, I had a, a shameless plug for my podcast, but, uh, fellow, a fellow Reframer was on last summer and she said, and the title of the episode was maybe when we're 80 with something that she had said. [00:39:00] And, uh, you know, she's like, I don't know, maybe, maybe when maybe I'll be out and we'll, yeah.

And I'll, and I'll have a drink. But for right now I can't think about that far in the future. I gotta think about today. And when I think about the rest of my life, I get discouraged cuz I'm like, man, God, do you mean I can't ever drink again? But all I just try to come back to you. Yeah. I need to not drink today and I know I cannot drink today and we're all on the same day.

You know, we get Reframers that share day counts in their shares and that's wonderful but I always try to encourage on the meeting that I host Yeah with veterans and first responders is, um, and, and active military folks that are in there that, hey, we're all in the same day like. This is the same, yes.

Whether you're on cutback or quit, we're all living the same day right now, and we have the decision what to drink and why. And so the day counts are wonderful and they help. And I did that for a while and now I still do it. You heard me say 13 months. I mean, I still think about it, but, uh, but I just try to come back.

I try to not get too wrapped up in it and just saying[00:40:00] like you said, I can't think about forever I'm just gonna think about right now. Yeah.

Kevin: I try and use both of them as tools. Like I try and use, not forever, but I, I try and. Uh, whenever I started, I try and push out my goal as far as I felt comfortable with, like, oh, I'm gonna hit a year.

Uh, but I always pulled it back as close as I needed to in order to be like, okay, I just gotta get through today. Um, but I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna live, I didn't wanna sit there and, and pound the mantra one day at a time, one day at a time and only live for today. And I'll worry tomorrow about if I want a drink.

Like I wanted to grow and try and change that mentality in my own head. Uh, so I used it when I needed it. I used that tool of like, I just gotta get through today. But then I, once I felt better, you know, the next day or, or the day after that, or the day after that. I'm like, okay. What do I need to do to keep working on this?

What do I need to do to, to push that goal out a little bit farther?

Dana: I think that's one of the great things about Reframe is it equips you with so many tools that you can use for whatever today looks like. Cuz some days you need the day count. Yeah. And some [00:41:00] days you do need, like you said, some days you do need to think longer too.

You do need to cast a vision. Like, I've got this blank whiteboard behind me cuz I'm, it's gonna be a vision board. I just haven't, I just haven't done it yet. And, uh, you know, I do need to think ahead, but also, yeah, there are some times where it's like here and now as well. Yeah.

Kevin: Hey, I got my, I got my little, uh, some of my little quotes and stuff from, I, I took a lot of it down.

But yeah, that was my, vision board Absolutely too behind me. So, um, over the course of this year Just looking back, I mean, it wasn't like, Hey, I signed up for Reframe and now 13 months, you know, alcohol free. I'm living, living the dream. Right? I mean, what challenges in particular do you feel that you've faced and what tools or what things helped you get through them?

Them? Or how did you reframe the

Dana: I had to reframe a lot. Cause when you have been covering up things, hard things in life, real problems with alcohol for years, and you remove the alcohol, you're gonna [00:42:00] feel a lot of things that you've been trying to numb and yeah, you're gonna actually have to deal with, uh, you know, relationship challenges and actually start to address them.

And I wish I could say it was all glitter and rainbows. But 90 days a hundred days into sobriety, I was in a bad place. I actually had left for a while. I left the house for a couple weeks and was on the verge of leaving because I thought that I had, I thought that things were that bad.

And I was just trying to get reoriented in my head. Like I wasn't in the right frame of mind, but it took me not drinking through that to get to the point where I could reset because I had had so long where, um, when I would get depressed or I would get that down or discouraged about things with my marriage or whatever else then I would invariably end up drinking eventually, but there it was like, I've gotta stick with this. And that's where that, those resources that I was talking about, those people, I hate to talk about people like resources, but the where those people from Reframe were [00:43:00] so key. Like it was, I'm texting them like, this is where I'm at, this is what's going on.

And they're walking me through. Um, not just the not drinking part of it, but also just the lifeing part of it. And one of the reframe coaches called me one time and she's like, we're gonna do a free session you're gonna let it. And I just let everything out. And there were just people that, uh, that helped carry me through those challenging times.

And as I continued to try, I think a lot of it was just trying to find a job was a big deal for me because so much of my identity has been Yeah centered around my job. And so, well into that first year I still wasn't working anything full-time and was just trying to figure out, oh heck, I went to work for Taco Bell last year because I just needed something that work.

I thought second shift is the only one that I haven't tried yet, so I'm gonna try second shift at Taco Bell. And that's where I went and worked. And, you know, here I am like trying to, and I'm listening, like I'm literally wrapping burritos listening to check-in calls. Yeah. Um, yeah. On the line. And uh, yeah, like [00:44:00] I remember that reframe and there were times where I was like having such a bad night at work and feeling so low, like, oh my God, I went from, you know, being in the 75th Ranger regiment to working at Taco Bell. Like, what? You know, what are all my master's degrees for? What was the point? You know? Uh, but I would be typing in, in between tacos, like typing in, like, I'm really sucking, I'm having a really hard night.

And then all this just avalanche of support comes from everyone in the community. Yes. Um, through the people that were sharing that night. And even though I couldn't share aloud there, just to read real quickly on my phone and to hear people shouting me out on their shares and saying that they loved me, um, and that they, and that they looked up to me helped me feel like, okay, like I may feel like a bag of crap, but that's just cuz I feel that way doesn't mean it's true.

And I just had to go through even more lows. Uh, to get to the point where I, where it really, I think stuck for, I hope it's stuck for good this time. I won't say that I'm, you know, oh, hey, I'm, I'm set now cuz [00:45:00] I made it through 13 months and, you know, yeah. And I got reframed, so I'm all set. I'm just saying that it's different, the perspective is different this time, I think because I'm aware of how, um, how deep, how deep and dark I can actually drink myself into.

I think the last time I didn't realize how bad it actually was and I just kept drinking and it was bad. So this time I know like if I, Dr if I start, I know myself, it won't stop until I'm back in that hole again. So, um, that's some of the differences I think between then and now. Yeah.

Kevin: and recognizing that, right. Being honest with yourself that, okay, like you can sit there and be like, Hey, 13 months, like I can. Maybe Yeah. A drink or something. I'm, I'm cured, right? Or I'm fixed or whatever, you know, I hear it. And it's just like, okay, but why, why would you want to honestly tell me why?

Like, you know, those are some of the questions we have to ask ourselves, honestly. Like, do you think that, that could happen. And it's, everybody's journey to it is decide and do it for themself, right? Um, but yeah, [00:46:00] having someone else to bounce that off of can be helpful.

I heard you, uh, say something I think it was a podcast once that, uh, Essentially like, I have to risk trusting someone else. I had to put myself out there. I had to risk trusting someone else. You know, whether it was your sisters in reframe or anybody else, or, or if you're sharing openly in, in a meeting I'd be remiss not to ask about your thoughts on opening up, as Yeah.

A guy. Right. And how that has been a challenge for you, if that has been a challenge for you. I know it was for me, you know, for me it was, but it was just for, like with one person. It was my therapist. That's where I started. I didn't go on to a Zoom call immediately and be like, Hey, everyone, like, you know, no.

If I was, if I joined Reframe, uh, in 2019, whenever I, I started on my own journey. I would've been camera off my thing, would've said iPhone. It wouldn't have had my name on it. And I just would've been listening occasionally, [00:47:00] typing in the chat because I'm, I feel like I thought I used to be an extrovert, but I'm an introvert.

Yeah. With extrovert tendencies, I feel that's what I call it. Um, but you know, what, what are your thoughts on that and, how would you recommend risking, you know, telling somebody how to risk, risking that, trusting to someone else? What

Dana: helped me in, um, In the context of Reframe of opening up was that I didn't have to use my name.

I could be iPhone. There's plenty of people that are in the meetings and they just say it's Zoom user or iPhone and you know, they, yeah, they just want to be there and listen or maybe type, like you said, type in the chat or even share, some people share with the camera off and maybe not disclose their identity, but they need to share and they, I think just starting, dipping your toes in the water that way is a good way to do it.

I created a, like my Instagram is, I kissed alcohol goodbye because I wanted to start it. Um, even now, I'll, I'll be telling this story and I'm like, oh my God, who's gonna hear this? And they're gonna be like, [00:48:00] Dana know, oh, listen, all the, you know, and, and it's still there. But, I think I had to start somewhere and it was like, I'm just gonna get on Instagram, even though I just despised social media.

I had never really done Instagram that much. I was like, everybody says that sober Instagram's really good and so I'll try. And so I got on there and just was like, blown away by the inspirational people that were there. And the more I just followed them, um, and maybe reached out to some of them and got great feedback, they actually wrote back and actually genuinely gave a shit about me.

I wasn't just some person that ran, they're like, oh, good, I've got another follower. It was, you know, they actually cared about where I was. And so I think taking those small Risks. They still feel risky when you're doing 'em, even though you are anonymous. Cuz you're still like, what, what if somebody knows?

I get it. But taking a step outside of your comfort zone in that regard is a way to go. Whether it's going to like, and I mean, it could be something as as scary as going to an AA meeting. Uh, you know, it could be something as simple as creating an anonymous Instagram. But [00:49:00] something had to give for me, I realized, and, and I think what it took was that first sister that had shared she was doing what I, I think knew that I would be doing. And when she shared her phone number, I was like, oh my God. Like that's really out there. Like, wow, that's like something super extroverted that I would do. And again, I'm not saying extroverts are better, I just don't want the introverts listening to think that I'm not, I know. I just, I'm very sensitive to that because we live in a culture at least in the United States where extroversion is, you get noticed more, right? And it, so it, you get praised more for being extroverted. And so I don't want to make it sound like that's necessarily better, but putting yourself out there is part of this deal, I think. And is it possible to recover on your own?

Yes. It's po anything's possible. Is it likely? I think it's not as likely by a long way, it's not as likely. Um, the odds are very slim that you're gonna make, be able to do it on your own. [00:50:00] And so reaching out and connecting that one other person that speaks to you, it was, you know, Vonda and I don't know that, I don't think Vonda would care that I use her name here.

Uh, that I don't think so. Cause I don't think so. She, she just, when she did that, I was like, you know, I, I really looked up to her and I still do. And she's been an absolute lifeline and, uh, and huge blessing for me over the past year, along with the other ladies that she introduced me to. And it was just that one step, I think that that ended up being the catalyst to me then.

And the extroverted me came roaring back within a month. I'm like, I'm starting a podcast and like starting Instagram groups and stuff. So I mean, not everybody has to go this whole like crazy, super extroverted way that I did but you are probably gonna have to be outside of your comfort zone to reach out and connect to.

There's gonna be that one person that you follow on Instagram. There's gonna be that person that you listen to share in a meeting or whatever. Uh, and the, uh, podcast that I think, uh, even, even on in an aa [00:51:00] sense, like you have to ask someone to be your sponsor as I've understood it from people, and I'm thinking of the fucking sober podcast where there's an episode where she's like, builds it all up and she's like, I'm gonna go ask this lady to be my sponsor.

And then it turns out that lady's moving away and she's like, oh my God. Um, so it, it's scary no matter what you're doing, but you probably have to do something, I think is the short answer to that long response that I just gave you.

Kevin: Yes. You have to find what works for you and typically what's gonna work for you is not doing it the same way you've always tried to do things.

Yeah. By yourself. Uh, like for me, that's how I always try to do things. I was just like, oh, I'll handle it. I'll deal with it. Well, obviously that wasn't working for me, so how, um, and I totally agree with, it's hilarious when I like tell people this and I say it this way to, because I think it's funny.

Like, I wouldn't be here today. Like, I, I don't think it's funny. I I really do. You know, it's very meaningful to me. But I wouldn't be here today for, for Instagram? Yeah. Like, because I started a private [00:52:00] anonymous Instagram account. I had no followers and I didn't follow anybody for months.

And then I started opening up a little bit, but. I, I just shared, but I was still private and I was still anonymous and then I made myself public and then I, I just kept dipping that toe in the water, then my foot, then my ankle, and I just kept like, kind of pushing it out a little bit.

And yeah, you reach out and you say hi to somebody, like, Hey, thank you for yeah, posting that today and that you know, just a comment. And that can turn into a discussion, which can turn into a friendship, which can turn into a lifeline. Uh, you know, say, and you never know, but finding someone who you resonate with can be, yeah, very powerful in that way.

Um, but yeah I owe Where, where I'm at now to, uh, actually my therapist who told, uh, cuz I, I started my Instagram account because my old Instagram account was I was a very good, uh, photographer of my first drink of the night. And I would post that on. Instagram and [00:53:00] on my old account, and I kept seeing it.

Oh, one year ago today you were doing this one, two years ago today you were doing this. And it was always a drink. And um, so I told her about that. It was bothering me. It kept popping up in the summer and she's like, well, why don't you start posting better pictures and next year you'll have better pictures to look at.

So I was like, okay. So I started, uh, I'm like, I'm not gonna do that on my account. So I started this, uh, you know, random account and just started posting pictures.

Dana: And now that I think about it, just branch out a little bit. You mention that. I think you might be The reason that I have that I started this sober Instagram last winter, I think you're the one that usually, um, mentioned or you would like drop your handle in the chat and say, you know, if people wanted to, to follow up.

So thanks for that. I, now that I, you telling that story, I'm like I think it was Kevin. So like you were my, you were my therapist on that. Thank you.

Kevin: There we go. Okay. Paying it forward. Right. Um, so, last question. So the name of the podcast, Reframeable, right, to reframe something it's to express [00:54:00] an idea, an action, a thought, a word in a different way.

Right? To be reframeable I see more as a us taking an active role in that change, an active role in looking at things differently and changing the way we see things and do things differently. And I'm just curious, over the course of this past year, how would you say that you became reframeable or have changed in a way, like have changed your patterns or your habits or however you want to answer that.

How have you reframed the way you look at alcohol and just. How you,

Dana: how it showed up. The word, the word as you were asking the question, the word that just kept, um, popping into my mind was open or openness. For me, it was learning to be open to the idea that maybe I'm not a bad guy.

Uh, and not only that, but maybe I'm a, maybe I'm a good guy because I just, a lot of my journey has just [00:55:00] been negative self-talk and assuming that deep down there's something wrong with me and that I have all these ulterior motives and that I'm a manipulator and that I'm a gas lighter and I'm all, all these crazy things.

And I think that I got so far down into my head with those narratives, in conjunction with the drinking, that it was just a self-perpetuating cycle. It was a vortex. And so I think the thing that made me reframeable was I started to find myself open to the possibility that life was different. Life is set up differently than maybe I thought it was. And that the world, maybe including my world, maybe operates differently than I've thought it was. And in my case, there's a lot of religious stuff that's going on in the backstory here. So, I mean, I've kind of shied away from that in the narrative, but I mean, that is a part of, for me, because I've like, you know, full disclosure for the years.

Like, I don't have any relationship with the church now, or, uh, I don't think I believe in God now. So I'm [00:56:00] at a place where things have kind of, that there have just been lots of things that have changed over the last several years. I mean, it used to be my vocation for crying out loud, and now I'm at a place midlife where my whole worldview has kind of shifted.

Yeah. Uh, for various reasons. But the drinking that, but the drinking was part of that too. So I think for me it was an, a willingness to be open to the world being different than I always thought it was. And maybe the way that I always thought it was before is right. And maybe this is just a phase, but I, it certainly felt like something different to me.

It's felt like a, um, I hate to, I hesitate to use the term rebirth, but I, I think that me sobering up at age 42 was significant because it's like, I think back to my 21st and the rite of passage and the pictures that we would laugh at of me slumped over my friend Sarah with all the like stamps on my hand from all the bars I got in that night, blacked out, right?

And that was like, Hey, remember that night? Oh, I blacked out on my 16th bar and it was my favorite bar. And [00:57:00] like all these things I'm like, ah. I understand why that was cool at the time, but you know, like I was 42 and it was like, and in a sense it was like, okay, maybe this really is the, the start of a new chapter.

Was I just willing to be open to where that chapter might lead even if it led away from something that for the previous, you know, 21 to 42 years have has been different vocationally, religiously and otherwise I hope that, I hope that response made sense.

Kevin: Yeah, I think that's, uh, that willingness to be open, that willingness to be open to change ourselves even at 42 or that, for me it was like 39 40.

And that was very, That's very hard. Right. It's very hard to do when you've lived your whole life this certain way and you sit there and are like, well, I can figure this out. I can figure this out and still keep this in my life. Yeah. So that's, I think the takeaway there is that be willing [00:58:00] to change, be open to change, you know, don't, uh, don't go into it like, oh I could never possibly I went into it like I would, I could never give up alcohol.

Like it's my best friend. Like why would I, right. Why would I ever say goodbye to it? Uh, but being willing to change and just look at that relationship, cuz that's what it is. It's a relationship. But being open to that is, Yeah, it's the best place to

Dana: start. Um, it's, well, if somebody's listening to this podcast, then they're probably more open than they, they think.

If they don't feel like they're open to it, they're probably more open. Yeah. You're probably more open than you think if you're listening to this.

Kevin: Yeah. And maybe you just haven't found yeah. The way that might click for you. I always kind of pictured it as like a combination lock.

Yeah. Everybody's combination is different. Everybody's combination of things that are going to elicit change or get you to move to that next, uh, yeah. Goalpost or whatever, like to push you forward. It's gonna be different. There's not a one size fits all for most things in [00:59:00] life.

Especially for this. Especially for this, you know, it has to, yeah, it has to.

Dana: Yeah. And I would say, you know, just keep doing, keep trying something. If you're out there and you're struggling or you're questioning or you're like, I don't know what's, what's going on right now? Just, just keep trying something.

And by listening to this, you're trying something and, and maybe, you know, obviously it's the Reframe podcast and you're listening to a couple guys who work for Reframe. So we're gonna be like, try Sure. Try Reframe if that sounds good to you. But just try something, if it's not Reframe, please. Like, yeah.

For the sake of your, just for your sake. Uh, not because we have any other agenda other than we just know what it's like to be in that spot. Yeah. And whatever's gonna work for you. Um, please just, just keep trying and don't give up cuz I was at the place where I was gonna give up. And it just so happened that Reframe was the Yeah, the thing that kind of was the saving grace for me at the right time.

But my hope for anyone that's listening that's discouraged or whatever is that you won't give up cuz Oh my God, I was in a [01:00:00] hole and I had really started to give up and that's not, it's a horrible place to be. Yeah. I'm glad, I'm glad I didn't

Kevin: too, man. Thanks. I'm glad you're here today.

Yeah, , yeah so what's next? What, what's next for, uh, I Kissed Alcohol. Goodbye. What's next for Dana? Uh, how can people find

Dana: you? Yeah, so the podcast is entering it fourth season and I like to. Say it like, like I'm, you know, like I've been around a lot longer than a year, but, um, actually tomorrow, uh, yeah.

Or, well, as of this recording tomorrow is the one year anniversary of the podcast when Vonda was my first guest actually and it was an atrociously produced episode because I was trying to do a YouTube live where I had no idea what I was doing, and it was like streaming her audio out of my speakers into my mic.

She sounded like she was in a cave and it was an adventure but what's next for the pod is the theme I've set for this spring is for the conversations I'm gonna have in my own podcast is owning our own stories. There's a lot of stuff that I've shared today in telling my story here, that I'm still wrestle with shame, and that I, I'm [01:01:00] hoping that by talking about it more and by continuing to try to process it through therapy and through all the tools that I've learned with Reframe and just on my own, that I can really start to own that story and not be ashamed of it.

And so I'm gonna be asking my guests this spring just to tell me about their stories and how are they owning it? How have they grown in living without alcohol and been able to discover a way that they maybe not only weren't ashamed of themselves in a negative sense, but, but can feel positive about themselves, uh, to, so that's what's next for the podcast. As for, for me, otherwise, I'm just trying to, just trying to make it every day, just trying to do a good job writing for Reframe. So if you see some ads on Instagram or something, it might be something that I wrote, uh, and, just really glad to be a part of the team here. And I'm grateful for this community.

It's changed my life and will forever be grateful for, for finding this app. So there's All right. Sales pitch complete.

Kevin: Yeah. No grateful for you. Thank you for being [01:02:00] on this episode of the Reframeable podcast. Looking forward to listening in on, uh, yeah, man, and

Dana: it's, I Kissed Alcohol.

Goodbye is the podcast, as you said, but I'm also again at I kissed Alcohol goodbye on Instagram. I forgot to drop that in there. So anybody can, or you can email me at i kissed alcohol goodbye gmail.com. If you want to connect, I would love to. I would love to hear from you.

Kevin: Yeah, and we'll put all, we'll put all that in the show notes and get you connected there.  So be sure to check that out. All right, Dana, thank you very much for joining us today.