Reframeable Podcast Episode #2 - Lisen Helander - The Friday Mind

Kevin:

Lisen welcome!

Lisen: welcome.

Thank you, Kevin. So great to see you and chat with the reframe crew today.

Kevin: Yeah. Great I'm so glad that you decided to join us here. Yeah,

Lisen: I'm excited.

Kevin: How's your week going?

Lisen: So far, so good. Busy, busy, but, I wanted to squeeze this in. So first thing in the morning we got our coffee, so I'm good.

Yep. Cheers. Cheers. Cheer. we both are huge. Love coffee lovers. I know that .

Kevin: Yes, definitely. I know I was, people were always like, oh, didn't you just [00:02:00] transfer, you know, over to coffee after you stop drinking? I'm like, actually, I drink less coffee now than I used to. That's but I, I enjoy it now versus Yeah, that's a good point to

Lisen: survive sometimes.

I wonder that too. Cause I look forward to it so much throughout the day too, and I'm like, did I do that? Yeah. But no, I totally, it's a new hobby now. I love it.

Kevin: Well, why don't we just jump right in and if you would like to, start sharing, about a little bit about your story.

Lisen: Yeah, sounds good.

You mentioned Detroit and, I am here, which is kind of crazy. I am from San Diego, California and that's, I don't know, a huge highlight in my life in itself, but I'm always. , everyone's like, what? San Diego to Detroit ? So I thought I'd explain that, but, I swear Detroit's pretty amazing. It's a big comeback city and, was in San Diego for so long and wanted a change and thought we'd give it a year here in Detroit, my partner Courtney and I, and, that was 2015.

So here we are today. But yeah, also work [00:03:00] downtown and live downtown. And it's just fascinating to see a city come back, like literally outside my window. So that's the bit of a story there. but yeah, as far as Reframe too, definitely fellow Reframer since maybe it was the summer of 2021 until now, and I've all, did some coaching with Kevin, which is amazing.

So I'll get into that a little bit. And also doing the forum moderation too. Been doing that a few months. Doing some extra, what do you say, shifts now? Morning. So typically on like Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday. So see you on the forum as well. But if we go back more to like my drinking resume, it hasn't been so black and white for me, which is why I think reframe is so key for people.

They do not really relate with some of the other recovery programs and Reframe just really fit. So if I go back and even thinking of like my first drink and first experiences, they [00:04:00] didn't really stand out too much to me. I grew up in like a very conservative, like Christian household and also with a ton of sports.

So there was just always something I was doing, very disciplined, two to three sports every year. It was just like my schedule was full. You know, maybe if in high school plus people were starting to try stuff, I would maybe try alcohol, but it wasn't like, oh my God, what an experience. I need to get back to that.

There were things that were more priority, and so what I've been kind of figuring out is like, where did that priority shift, you know, because it's, it hasn't been again, black and white for me. I've been able to enjoy and. and drink, and then, then it just got to such a, the worst level, probably more in my early forties rather than like twenties.

So, again, I love that Reframe is not all or nothing, one or the other. There's two tracks. I've been on both tracks as far as like cutting back or fully cutting out and, I've had some experiences or [00:05:00] consequences that have happened in my life in the last year, plus couple of years that I've really just had to cut out and also wanted to cut out cause it just, things weren't working right.

You know, relationships, I think with jobs I've always been able to, keep it going and excel okay, but it was just, and I'm noticing now it's just much harder. I get so much more done now, in a day. And yeah. So anyways, as far as using like the Reframe tools, like that's really stuck for me and I, I can't imagine doing anything else.

I don't know if you want me to expand there

Kevin: yeah, I was laughing at the beginning cuz Yeah, you're, I was like, you're going the wrong way from San Diego.

Lisen: Yeah. Everyone's well, everyone's like, that's where we wanna end up. What are you doing? And I've answered that question thousands of times.  So,

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you get that all the time. And so, yeah, I was just curious like, that shift in mindset from cutting back to cutting out completely. [00:06:00] I know that was part of my journey. I feel like I had to try and moderate and figure that out. Yeah.

First in order to be like, that didn't work for me. Mm-hmm. . But, how do you see that as part of your journey, like when you, your mindset when you started versus your mindset whenever you decided to say, Hey, you know what, I need to mm-hmm. take a break for, for a longer period of time.

Whatever, you know, that doesn't have to be like, Forever. Yeah.

Lisen: Get that. The dreaded forever I know we've worked on that. I like, I don't like that word forever. We need, yeah, I think you just, I mean, it was such a part of my identity and life that it's like, okay, let's just get this to this moderate level as we say and work on it.

And so I worked on it with you, and I had successful weekends. I remember , like working on a trip to Vegas and, working on a plan and working on an amount and certain types of drinks and it, and it, it worked. And then the next weekend was probably the worst weekend of my [00:07:00] life, with drinking.

And that all went out the window. So what is, what is that? You know? But I definitely wanted to try it out and could get back to that level because I, I like naturally used to be at that level. I think with college sports and stuff like that, like we would, we'd have dry seasons and, definitely like party before and after.

But I don't remember like it getting me into trouble or. , you know, I was so focused on like a bigger purpose and I think that's probably what I lost. So, I really wanted to get that back. But one thing like, you know, you talk about relationships too, is my partner was pointing out, it's like, we're great in the week.

Like, you're fine. And then it's like one weekend night, or, one time a month or one time every weekend. She thought it kind of was, of course, thought it was less than that. But , so yeah. Yeah. What does that mean? I need to step back and figure this out. Do 30 days, they recommend just get it all out.

And then it was like, okay, then do a hundred days, a thousand hours, 60 days, it's now it's been a year and a half and it's just, or close to [00:08:00] that and I'm seeing so many benefits. As compared to just that initial 30 minutes, hour high that that you feel. So if you could think of all the benefits instead of that, it's just outweighs it for me now.

Giving it time, you know?

Kevin: And then you mentioned too about the, like it showed up, it started showing up so much more in your early forties than it was even in your twenties. Mm-hmm. Was there any kind of, , was there any one shift or was it just kind of like a gradual thing that it just started slowly?

Yeah.

Lisen: More, I think it is so slow and, and can be mysterious, like what happened? It may have been moving here too. But I do look at periods of my life, like coming out was huge. Although I didn't turn to drinking initially, it was a slow, gradual thing as well, I think just because so much, especially back then I was 18 or so, and then after college it was more like my twenties, people just turned to the community and [00:09:00] turned to parties and it was others always drinking around.

There wasn't like other options. So, my family at certain times was community and was going out and I worked an event, so it was always there, and then it was like, oh, this. , I think, the drink came along with the connection and the community. So, you always had that, and I'm sure that slowly could build up an addiction there.

It's like coupled together. But what you're really getting out of it is a social thing. But you're you're having a drink before, during, after. Yeah. Every time, you know? Yeah. So I think it was partly that, yeah. .

Kevin: And how, how was that contrasting I guess between the, when you started cutting back mm-hmm.

versus when you started cutting out? How did that feel going out? Yeah. And being with friends and family, and doing all those events. Like, was there, how, how was it trying to come? Yeah.

Lisen: Let's put it that I think it. [00:10:00] and what something I've always needed to work on is worrying about what everybody else thought.

Like, oh no, it was terrified because that was like my, almost like a medicine, social anxiety or anxiety like that would, oh, I knew I'll just have a drink, I'm fine. And so like totally erasing that from the equation. I just didn't know what to do as like, okay, how do I start this? Like do I just kind of pretend I have something or do I tell them ahead of time or what do I do?

And. Some of my close friends that I knew were like big drinkers, I'd just text them and be like, Hey, I'm taking a break. Like I'm on a health kick. I would just say little things like that, like I will be enjoying like a AF option or mocktail or zero proof or whatever you wanna call it. And so that just lowered my anxiety a little bit to, to still meet them and do these things, because it's surrounded like my own support, and my own, like, I'm super social and I love it. And, I think they like that dopamine too much with, with [00:11:00] alcohol. Just go, go, go and keep going. so I can't just cut that out. One big thing with my partner and I was, we love sports and we love like going to a bar to watch sports. We like even eating at the bar, having drinks, and I still do that.

Initially I was embarrassed with what to order, and what do I say? But that constant like just, you're kind of like beating yourself up in your mind that you have to do this and now you have to be different and you have to talk about it. And yeah. So it was tough, but now it's so different, but it was really tough with that transition.

Kevin: Yeah, I know a lot of people myself included, like, I was angry mm-hmm. that I'm like, why am I the only one that has to do this? Yeah. What emotions did you feel about that? Like, whenever everybody else is around and drinking and you're sitting there with your AF option or water, which is af obviously. Yeah. Whatever the alcohol free option was you know, how did that feel and, and how did you, work to get past that?

Lisen: Yeah, it definitely was like that feeling left out and, and in seeing other people [00:12:00] drink to excess, it's like, yeah, why am I doing this frustration?

For sure. And it, it's kind of like a grieving, like a loss your go-to and having people over for drinks and buying drinks. And then I just started looking at the other side though, and it's very interesting to reflect and be social in a different way and almost like. , I don't know. You think of like two sides of the stadium, like go to the other side and, and look at everything.

And it's, it's very interesting that people watch when you're not drinking. And, and then seeing some of those cringeworthy behaviors that I've done and seeing those in other people and being grateful for not being there and grateful for not buying the group a round and making everybody go out to another place and spending more money and So yeah.

It, yeah, that, I hope that explains it enough, but yeah. Yeah. But just that fear of missing out and what will people think of me, and they're gonna assume I have a problem. And that old school thinking of like, if you're not drinking [00:13:00] equals problem, was like a huge obstacle for me in the beginning.

Kevin: Yeah. And that's a huge obstacle for a lot of people because there it is that old school thinking like it's that, like you mentioned earlier, like it's that black or white. It's that, yeah, you either have a problem or you don't. And people don't realize that there's a lot of people out there who quote unquote would say they don't have a problem, but don't like the way alcohol is showing up in their life.

Mm-hmm. And, just recognizing that. Right. You can change that. Like you can, you know, work on that in your own way. And it's okay. Mm-hmm. to take a break and, yeah. Cause I know, initially for me, I was always coming up with excuses. For why I wasn't doing Yeah. Oh, you know, right now. Oh, like, oh, it's lent, I gave it up for Lent.

Mm-hmm. , and I'm like, I, I haven't given anything up for Lent since. So Yeah. Like, yeah. You know, I'm just using whatever excuse, like, oh, I'm on antibiotics. Oh, totally. Uh, which I actually was early

Lisen: on. Yeah. So like, oh, good that

Kevin: never, that [00:14:00] never I definitely used that, but that never stopped me before.

Mm-hmm. either. So, you know, I, I was like, oh, it's fine. Yeah, that's why I tell people if you're because people throw that out. Like, oh, I'll use that as an example. And I'm like, yeah, just don't use specifics. Cuz as everybody always becomes a doctor whenever you say that, like, oh, what kind you take? Oh, you can drink on that, yeah.

Lisen: Oh, you're fine. I haven't dug that. Yeah. Oh, that's so true.

Kevin: Yeah. But yeah, finding that thing that, that helps us be comfortable, whatever that is. Mm-hmm. . And it could just be saying, Hey, I'm taking a break. I am doing a thousand hours dry, I'm taking 42 days off. I'm doing a challenge dry January.

Yeah. All these things damp January now, you know, all these things that, that we can throw out, but ultimately it's what are you comfortable with? And then, I think it's recognizing that it's okay for us to work on ourself. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Right. If you told people like, Hey, I'm starting a, I'm starting a workout routine, they'd be like, Hey, great.

Good for you. What are you doing? [00:15:00] Or, or maybe not. If they weren't Yeah. feeling good about, and that's where a lot of it stems from, right? Is everybody else is, is whenever you mention about, Hey, I'm taking a break from alcohol, they, they immediately go to their own drinking.

Yeah and or not, it just depends. Like, if you get pushback, it's usually because they themselves are seeing that as something that they need to work on their own life. Mm-hmm. or they need to address, if they're supportive, maybe they're totally fine with , their drinking or how it shows up in their life.

Yeah. And that's great. but yeah, recognizing that other people's reactions is more a reflection on where they're coming from versus what you're doing.

Lisen: Yeah. That's been huge too. Cause yeah, I did start with like, oh, dry January now. Oh, I think I'm gonna do the, you know, six months or a thousand hours first and six months in a year.

And then it's like, then what do you say? But I had a lot of reactions of defensive, like, well, I only drink on the weekends, or will I do that? You know, and I'm like, I'm not really worried about you. Like, cut it out. Oh yeah. I sh or, or some like, I should [00:16:00] do that too, or, good for you. But like, there was a lot of, well, I do this, it's so, it's okay.

Kind of thing. But it does make people look at themselves. Yeah,

Kevin: cause, I don't know how many times I've heard that and was like, Hey, great. Mm-hmm. , Hey, that's awesome. Mm-hmm. , you know, if it works for you. Yeah. But it's so funny, someone asks like, oh, you're not drinking. I'm like, no, I don't drink.

And they immediately go into what you just said. Well, I drink on mm-hmm. Wednesdays and Friday. I'm like,

Lisen: yeah. , don't worry about it. Like explaining themselves to you. Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah. As long as you don't give me shit for it. Mm-hmm. you, do you? I'm fine with it.

I'm curious what specifics or just in general the tools you used? We talk about tools all the time. Mm-hmm. , we have in the Reframe app, we have a toolkit that has all kinds of things at your fingertips that you can Yeah. Use to get yourself through a craving or, yeah. You know, we have community meetings, we have the forum, which you are now a moderator on, , But there's so many tools out there, right?

[00:17:00] Yeah. There's so many things we can do. So many books, so many podcasts, so many whatever it works so many, in-person meetings, all that kind of stuff. Like what do you feel was the biggest, it doesn't have to be one thing, like some of the biggest changes for you, in order to make that shift from, Hey, what am I doing here?

Yeah. To this is the lifestyle

Lisen: that I, yeah, I think the hu It's like learn, learn, learn. Like I had no idea this information was out. , the only information I was getting is like, drinking is cool. Like you feel better initially, like let's go get a drink, drink, drink, drink. But nothing about what it's doing to us.

And I say this in the fourm a lot, like dive into the daily tasks and it, it sounds so simple and I feel like cheesy for me to say that, but, I'm still doing them and doing them again because it is a lot of that, like the inspirations like inspire or sorry, the, the tasks inspire me to just keep learning and [00:18:00] actually doing it, and just seeing, you know, the neuroscience behind it, the psychology behind it, and there's just more than enough info out there.

So I would do that like every single morning with coffee. It was the start of my day. It just kind of got me on the, the right foot there. Also certain podcasts like Sober Awkward is a funny one. Champagne Problems I love. And I've been recently like talk about neuroscience, really getting into the Huberman lab.

Not only, I know a lot of people talk about that episode with alcohol, which I haven't heard that one it's amazing. I just got done this morning with the one on dopamine. He, it's, I think it's his newest one, and it's so fascinating. I'm like, we're not supposed to live our lives like trying to peak all the time, like, , you know, with , with alcohol.

Yeah. And, and if you do, you're gonna be here for a while. And so, you know how to, you kind of just stay on that more even keel. And so just learning that like naturally shifts me away from wanting alcohol. [00:19:00] And so just, yeah, learning that science behind it. Learning other ways to get dopamine and so that's, those have been huge tools, obviously books, like I've got a whole stack here.

I think too, like books different, a little bit different of books like The Biology of Desire too, like addiction is not a disease, you know, I don't wanna think of this thing that I have every day for the rest of my life. and it's never gonna go away, I don't think that way. So any books where you, you know, you're thinking different and they're more modern and they're not, I hate to say it, but AA based, because I just, it's hard for me to jump onto a bandwagon that hasn't changed in like 80 years or whatever.

I know they made some small changes, but overall it's like, The same basics. And I, I can't, like, there's so much information out there. If you're gonna have me go back to a book that's so basic, I will drink, you know, like, it's like a one trigger to Yeah to drink. So I was just looking at my stack of books though, and you know, and also learning like Dopamine [00:20:00] Nation.

Think it's Lemke, Anna Lemke, I believe. But it's just Anna. Yeah, just those, I mean, talk about bringing me more dopamine. I just get so fired up about that stuff because like, why aren't we learning this? You know, like, It's, it's all like, then you go back to all the money involved in alcohol and big alcohol and you're like, oh my God, there's, so, there's another way.

So yeah, those are my tools and they inspire me. And, and gosh, coaching was huge with you. Like just having that one-on-one to where you can pass something by someone and relate with somebody and just learn more tools from it, from coaching and jumping into the forum if you want different viewpoints as well.

But it's, it really started with the learning. And I'm not just saying that cuz I'm here, but Reframe's the one that offered that, you know, with, than other groups. And it's not so intimidating, like, walk into this room, you'll never drink again and you have to do these things and you, you know, it's like, [00:21:00] Check this out.

And for that really works for me, not for everybody, I'm sure. And I know some of the other groups works wonders for people and I, I'm not putting that down. It's just as far as tools, it's really helped here. So I appreciate it so much, .

Kevin: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And you know, in the first episode, I talked about how there's really only one way to make a change. Mm-hmm. . And that's the way that works for you. Yeah. And and I feel and if that's you know, AA Yeah. If that's therapy, if that's coaching, if that's Reframe, if that's, all of the above. Right? Because they're, they all, all these things offer, not just these, like anything, like there's so many ways to tackle this because there's so many different reasons that we all reach for a drink. Mm-hmm. And maybe we need that in-person connection, which something like an AA or other groups might offer. Maybe we, don't want that. Yeah. And we want to I know [00:22:00] personally, like I needed some sort of connection mm-hmm.

and that came through therapy. Yeah. in just being able to talk to somebody. About it. Uh, but also like number two on my list was learning, like you said. Mm-hmm. , and this was pre-Reframe. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, I like devoured all the books. Mm-hmm. like Audible was my friend and I just plowed through.

Those were like my community meetings cuz I would just listen it essentially like finding all these quit lit books and things. We're listening to people share their story. Yeah. I was like,

Lisen: wow, they're out there. .

Kevin: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . . And that helped me a lot too because yeah, I'm listening to that on the way home from work and the times when I might think about like, Hey, I should probably stop and get something. But no, I think it's so important to learn the science behind, what alcohol is doing

mm-hmm. in your body. Because I know for me, I know a lot of people think they know, but I think a lot of people don't know the full extent of it. Like for me, I was like, oh, it impacts my liver, right? I mean, that's the problem. But no, it impacts [00:23:00] every single part of your digestive system. It hits your liver, it, it impacts your heart.

It impacts your brain tremendously. And realizing those things where in the beginning when I tried to do it myself without this kind of knowledge, it was more of a, how do I put it? , it, it was more of like me against myself. Yeah. And, and I was just trying to grit through it and white knuckle it and, oh, why can't I do this?

Like, I should just be able to, I, I said I'm not gonna drink and I should just not be able to drink for this month. Mm-hmm. , uh, or whatever it was. Yeah. And, realizing that there's a hell of a lot more going on. There's a hell of a lot more forces at work that I need to be aware of and take ac take into account.

Mm-hmm. So with that, what do you feel was like the, like some of the harder things for you to get through? I know we might have talked about some already, just like, dealing with other people. But was there anything, specifically that, was difficult to work through in the beginning.

Yeah.

Lisen: I think it was [00:24:00] just admitting to myself and stop lying to myself really about how much it was like I, I'd have my gut was saying, like my head is feeling different, my brain is feeling different. , but it didn't really make me stop and say, look, there's something that could be wrong here.

And I don't know if I've done any damage there. It's so clear now and I feel like I lost weight in my head. But I definitely was like, I, my gut was saying something's wrong with your body, like you're not being totally healthy. And so, again, I had some consequences was I was like forced to face myself and consequences in a couple different areas in my life that were pretty severe. And it's like, okay, like you can't drink right now. Like you have to figure this out. And I remember that saying to that to myself and, That's just so hard to sit with that with your own self, I think, you know?  [00:25:00] then the other people were later, but just to be like, okay, it's, it's over the, this party's over this version of the party's over

And so I remember like talking to you on that day too, or the day after, and it's like, Okay, here we go. Like this is done and it's a whole part of me but, I gotta figure this out. So just starting at square one, I think that's just the hardest thing and. That's why I see, you know, it's like people say when you're ready, you're ready.

And when it clicks, it clicks. And I think some people I'm seeing on the forum, like, you know, why isn't this working? I don't know that they're quite ready yet. Or they're, they've been pushed to that where you, you know, are, are just that clicks. And I, it's hard to explain that, but that's the hardest part, but the best part too.

And you think you're going through hell, but it's like, now I'm learning that being patient like with every moment, because those moments are some of the best really. And it, and it's like the worst stage of your life, but they're really the best if you go [00:26:00] through 'em. So going through and feeling that and not doing anything about it, but going through it is so hard and

then you get to the judgment of other people and other, all the other shit in my head. But like the first thing was like myself. Yeah. You know?

Kevin: Yeah. Uh, and I think that helps too be being in, whether it's, hitting up some kind of community meeting or going into the forum and seeing other people mm-hmm.

share, uh, or social media, or wherever, because then you realize, Okay. I'm not alone with this. Yeah. Like this isn't, I'm not strange for, you know, not being able to just do this mm-hmm. But it's also tough too because that, that we have to make sure that we're careful of that because that can also come with a fair amount of comparing Right.

To

Lisen: other people. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin: And that can be just as detrimental when we sit there and they're like, well, this person seems to doing it just fine. And why is it easy for them and not for me? And, and we have to recognize that we're Yeah. Totally [00:27:00] different people. And even if we're the same age and we basically have drank the same amount and, and just it's different like my life, my stressors, the reasons why I reach for a drink are much or something, why you might so it's dealing with all that and it's figuring out the ins and outs of

my own puzzle. Mm-hmm. , uh, and

Lisen: figuring that out. Yeah. And I think if you're out there comparing though, it's like that you're not, you gotta be there for your own journey. It's yours, it's so different than anyone else's. And if someone has 500 days and you have one, like that one is just as important, you know?

And I know some people are like, well, I wish my friend wasn't drinking, or I wish this like, no, like, it doesn't matter. Like you've got it. It's the part of the hard here. It's like the challenge is like this is just you and no one else and you can't rely on anybody else with it. So like they say, comparison is the thief of joy.

It's like you'll always be down if you keep looking at everybody else's experience. Like it in that way to try to to beat them or whatever.[00:28:00] I definitely admire, and I get inspired with people that have gone through this, but, try not to, like, that comparison thing is just so depressing, right?

Kevin: Because I mean, you can be on the same day too. Mm-hmm. like, oh, I'm on day 20. They're on day 20. But you don't realize that this could be their 15th day, 20 in a row. Yeah. Like that, that they've, that they're almost perfecting up to day 20 at this point, and you're on your first go at it. Mm-hmm.

Right. And, it takes time, it takes learning and, and struggle to get through. Yeah. I know you talked about relationships early on and I'm curious how were people around you? Were they supportive? Did you have to, like your partner or friends mm-hmm

or, or whoever was there that level of support and were you worried about telling them if we could? Cause I know a lot, I know that weighs heavily

Lisen: on a lot. Yeah, definitely was. My partner was overjoyed so she was like, I mean, this was affecting our relationship, so much, [00:29:00] towards

like leading up to me stopping and throughout it, I mean, we've been together since 2013 and it's been an ongoing kind of, this has been our thing of like going too far on certain occasions. So, this has been building up, but she lo we love to be social and go out and so it's like, that would suck if you remember her saying that one, that would suck if you couldn't drink, so we're just like, keep it going.

But she would say now, which she, I had a speaker share and she's like, make sure you tell them that. Like, you, this saved our relationship, you know? I don't think she was gonna put up with it anymore. She was like, one more thing, one more thing. And as you age too, it's not the best thing to keep happening.

So Me just totally putting the brakes on it. She actually was staying at, like, we had a big thing happen and she was staying at her sister's and it was cuz of my drinking and I was alone and like she did end up coming back and, that's when I stopped drinking. And, and again, she's even so, Open about never, you know, you don't have to say ever again too, like she [00:30:00] gets it.

But like for now, it was like, be needed to work on what is all in here and behind it all . So definitely encouraging there. I would say, let's see, friends wise, some were a little bit, what was, what's the right word? Like defensive as we talked about or felt like, yeah, really looked at themselves like one, one friend, like just had mentioned, well, I don't wanna be rude and not, you know, it's the holidays and if somebody's offering drinks, like, I don't wanna be rude, so I'm gonna just do dry January.

And I'm like thinking to me like what? Like people should be okay and offering other options than just alcohol, but that was just my mindset then, and not this person's, and I'm just like, so, you get like cringed responses like that. There's some people I would say that, we, you naturally don't do the same things or hang out as much, but you're hoping that we can shift to other activities. I love anything outdoors and like [00:31:00] skiing and hiking and running, and I travel for half marathons now, so like that really helps. But, and, you know, work. Yeah, I'm, I'm just trying to think of all the different categories work, it's like, such is still like classic, let's go for drinks and, I think the Friday Mind really helped a lot of this just because it's out there now that they...  some of 'em follow me and they're like, oh, so you're not drinking right now?

So it was just like easy to talk about it, which really helped. So, yeah, I would say mixed, but no one's been like, whoa, like really rude to my face. I'm sure behind it, , but, uh, yeah, you never know. Yeah, I'm sure. And, and you know, I've, yeah, I've had some unfortunate experience with family or people that you think would keep certain things private and haven't, and, you know, you just like, Kind of learn who to trust and what, how much to share and who to talk to.

But I think overall though, it's been really positive overall. Yeah. And it gets [00:32:00] more and more so as it just gets more out there too, you know?

Kevin: Yeah, has your,

uh, dialogue changed over time? How you presented it early on versus how you present it now? Yeah. I'm guessing it has. I know it has for me.

Lisen: Oh yeah. I was just,

Kevin: so what do you see as the big difference there?

Lisen: Well, now, I mean, I would think of it, uh, I don't know, days or, all week if I had a Friday night plan of like what I'm gonna say and what I'm gonna say to this person and what I'm gonna do and what drink I'm gonna order and like how I'm gonna go about this.

And now I just go and I don't even think about it. Leading up to it because most people know, or I just care less and less if I order. Like I do always check menus and see what I can order, like knowing, like I wanna know what kind of places is going into it, just, just for me and yeah. But yeah, it's changed from almost being like not even wanting to show my face, like, uh, yeah, I'm not drinking , you know, to embracing it and actually feeling proud of it and thinking differently. I always think, think di different, [00:33:00] drink different. And it's like so many people are just going with what's cool I guess is it, or whatever you wanna say is like Just going along with the crowd or just what you should do to, to fit in.

And so not doing that is so empowering and invigorating. And so I'm feeling that now as to where I'm just going in and yeah, doing my thing and sharing, if people ask. I'm not like this big. I don't like announce it or talk, drinking down in any way. Uh, my partner drinks, you know, here we have stuff here and, and when we're out and, she's on her own thing, whatever, we respect each other.

So it's like, I don't know. It, it's really shifting that from, like a bar should be for anybody and it should just have options for all. So it doesn't matter anymore. You don't have to say, I don't drink, I can't go. There should be options to, to go in whatever state you're in.

So,

Kevin: yeah and good options too. Yeah, whether that's something like mocktails or alcohol free [00:34:00] versions of alcohol or not just the, oh, we have water. Mm-hmm. , like, not that response that I've heard recently people get. Yeah and it's, you know, it's tough. It's a different, definitely a different mentality that I think is shifting, but I think it, it still will take time. Mm-hmm. , I love how you said the, the think different. Drink different. Mm-hmm. , uh, I believe it was. Right. and I know on this podcast, we like to reframe the way we look at things. Mm-hmm. , right. And then that's the question that I like to ask people about is, is how do you, how have you become reframeable?

How have you taken that action? Yeah. And, or, you know, or reframed. and one of the big things, the Friday Mind, I feel. One big reframe of, of how we see, uh, drinking, and that mentality, of, I think you said, living for Friday's, right? Yeah. I love that. What would you say has been like the biggest mental shift over the last one and a half years plus if you want to talk about that Friday [00:35:00] mind concept a little bit. Yeah. Uh, I'd love to hear

Lisen: that. I think it helps summarize like tools and kind of how I reframed my brain because. How, like, how I was like, oh shit, if I'm not drinking, like how do I go into a Friday? You know?

I mean I, then I realized, whoa, I'm like living for, what is it, like 14% of the week? And I would, okay. Monday I, absolutely would suck and, I'd still be feeling the weekend, right? And Monday and Tuesday, I think Wednesday was my day where I was super productive of feeling better.

Thursday I was like really getting excited, like Friday Eve is coming, like maybe a couple drinks, and then Friday through Sunday was activities and social outings involving drinking. So then Monday I'm feeling like shit again and it's just like I have one day a week with the Wednesday. I would maybe have that.

I was, I thought I was probably clear of alcohol. I probably wasn't because if you look at it like you need at least 24, 48, 72 hours, of [00:36:00] nothing to really get it out of you. I mean, and plus like, depending on, at the minimum, right? Yeah. So if I'm like late on a Sunday, maybe Monday, Tuesday, like it's not enough.

And sometimes there would be, like, if we go out to dinner, there'd be another drink involved. So like I never ha let my brain just have that normal high, but, so take a break. Yeah. So it was just like this constant like hamster wheel, like some people call it. when I had to stop, I was like, what do I do now for that Friday?

And I didn't want to, and I didn't think it was fair to change, like our social, like our family social outings and Courtney's social outings. I'm like, I still wanted to just get up and go and do them. And a lot of people don't do that right away and don't dive in. I think that diving in really helps because it's out there and you're going to, you're gonna do it.

You're gonna eventually do it. And if you keep hesitating and inside, like you're gonna have to get used to it. It's horrifying at first . [00:37:00] but I would still go out with Court my partner and I just remember like being at a couple different places. One was a brewery and they were like, I was like, Hey, do you have anything?

Like a lot of 'em are getting NA's now or at least having an option. , do you have anything? And they're like, oh, we have items like on the gun, like the soda gun. And I was just like so bummed. Right? So I got whatever that was and then we went to a bar where we're like sitting at a bar, like a local place and they had some sort of af martinis or AF cocktails and I just lit up.

It was like that feeling of Friday again to where, oh my God, we we're done with our work. We can go have fun. And I had like a cool glass to drink it with. And so that's the moment when I was comparing those two places of like, wow. I should encourage this behavior, discourage the other behavior and say, wow, like you're alcohol free certified, you know, you offer these things.

And so, I, [00:38:00] speaking of Friday Mind, it's just a certification scale, one to five, one to two. You're not certified or uncertified. And then three to four, or sorry, three to five. You are. And so looking at like the top, which would be a five, would be fully mindful where the menu is just as alcohol free as alcohol.

And I think my ultimate vision is going into a bar and, and you're just, you have a list of drinks. Do you want alcohol in it or do you not? Do you want seed lip in it? Do you want gin in it? Like it shouldn't be a place where it's so alcohol centric and there's a lot of places going towards that, but there's a lot that aren't, you know?

And, and so it's like if you're certified a, a one or two, like, you don't care and you don't really wanna make a change, or you, I shouldn't say that, but like, you're not changing, right? Maybe a two would be like, you've got a ginger beer and a bottle that might be cool. But, so this whole thing got me so passionate about going out. Court laughs now she's like, I think we go out more now than before. Cause you wanna go review [00:39:00] these places. And a lot of times I'm taking pictures with May f drink, af drink her regular alcohol drink. I don't care. Like let's all drink together, whatever it is like have tea, water, have the strongest martini, have an AF martini, but have the options.

And so the whole certification was like promoting those restaurants that have the options. And I was so excited about doing that , I still am and taking the photos and editing them and posting them and like tagging them and, Getting a good response from it. And then people kind of have this little guide of like, oh, I should support that place because they have this.

And so it's, it's been growing slow, like slow, steady growth. I don't like market for it, besides these kind of things or, it's been more of a passionate hobby That's kind of changed my mindset of Fridays and now I think of like Friday every day because I can have those. Every day and feel the same way as I used to on that Wednesday of like finally getting some of it out.

Yeah. So it's really worked for me and I [00:40:00] know people say find like a bigger passion, and rather than just like, I can't drink, I can't drink, I can't drink, like what can you do? What would make you feel that way? Like getting this of when I post something or encourage something is way beyond better than just like having a drink or two and feeling that, I would say, or it's similar than that, so, that bigger, giving you that dopamine.

Yeah, it is. And I guess it's, people, social media is another thing, but I just get excited to share, something that's different, you know? And so that's been my big re reformable moment and I keep it on to this day. And I don't think it would've been as, it would've been much harder if I didn't have something like that.

You know to focus on. Yeah, yeah,

Kevin: yeah I agree with that. I mean, finding that, it doesn't have to be like this thing you create, it doesn't have to be social media, it doesn't have to be, you know, but finding something that you are passionate about along the way is going to be important. Right.

Having that, other thing [00:41:00] that you can, you know, it just makes you excited. Yeah. Uh, you know, because we're, if we give up drinking sometimes, if we cut back or cut out, like sometimes like there's a huge gap that needs to be filled with mm-hmm. time and energy and, and maybe we have more energy after a while.

Mm-hmm. , like, maybe not right away, but, over time, like we can get more energy that where do I wanna you know, allocate this to mm-hmm. , where do I wanna push those two? Yeah. Uh, I like the, let's all drink together and, and that's not for everybody, right? Yeah. because, but that starts that shift of mindset it's not like us and them it's, we can all just be there.

Mm-hmm. together and, oh yeah, come on out. We, you know, we're going to this place and, they have great, options that, cuz yeah. My, my go-to is ginger beer because most places mm-hmm. have that. Yep. But I'm always looking, I always like, if I see something like they have mocktail menu or whatever.

I'll order something from there just to kind of encourage it to keep that

Lisen: I do too. I'm like, I [00:42:00] better get a few of these . Yeah,

Kevin: yeah, yeah. Uh, or, or I'm looking, I, I think you alluded to that. Look, I'm looking at, the cocktails there and I'm like, okay, what mixers and what other things that they have here that I like that, ooh, can I have this just, you know, no alcohol.

Can I have this on the rocks with lime, and, whatever that might be. And then that's, Unfortunate that you have to get creative, but that's one way to, to do it too. Mm-hmm definitely. But, uh, yeah. How many fives do you come across?

Lisen: It's rare, and it's tough because some are super mindful.

It's just like the the wines lit lists are huge and beer and drafts and martinis, and then they may have a whole page of zero proof, but it's still not equal. So it's a four. Right. But. I have some local ones here. There's a place shumato in Detroit where they like literally have, so they have their spirit and spirit less, so they do the same like for every drink.

So that's definitely a five there. there's a really cool [00:43:00] coffee shop that has an an a full on alcohol free bar. Like, so , it's actually, yeah, it's just a alcohol-free bar and they do live music and things like that. Yeah, I would say, I would say the most fall right now, like within a four that I review that, that are mindful and they've got some really great menus.

But the five is just like that extra you know, kind of for, I guess equally, you know, five and five kind of thing, which is hard to always do. So I don't know if I need to change that a little bit cuz some fours might need to be fives. But, four and five are amazing really. But definitely have more fours.

But yeah, it's been fun. I'll do it when I travel too and just like, it's just, it's again, travel could be a big trigger. I used to drink the whole time when I was like on the plane and off, so it's again, another, yeah. Good activity to go find who has the best menu, you know? So that's something anyone could do.

Yeah. Is like, you know, to go out, like, let's find the options in to spend our money there. You. . [00:44:00]

Kevin: Yeah. , yeah, I'll be doing that. Uh, we're, we're going to Florida in two weeks. Nice and, but I'll be, we're driving, so I'll be packing a lot of , my favorite, uh, oh yeah. Na options to, to bring down with us since we're not flying.

So That's cool. Uh, yeah. That's always nice when you can do that. Yeah. But, uh, I love the, uh, I just had a new business idea for myself if I coffee, coffee bar, alcohol free bar with music. Yeah, that's, that's right on my alley's, so I'll

Lisen: send you the link. I love that idea. Yeah. It's like Oakley or Berkeley Coffee here in Oak Park, but it's, they're doing great.

You gotta, yeah. It's, it's awesome. Yeah. Love that.

Kevin: Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. , If you'd like to share a little bit about, what else you might have going on, things that you're working on in the future and, where people can find you.

Lisen: Oh yeah, sure. So, website, uh, is the friday mind.com, and I'm for social media.

I'm doing Instagram and also the Friday Mind. So love to follow you [00:45:00] back as well. And, yeah, I'm still doing the certifications right now. I'm also looking in, or actually did sign up for a coaching program like w. Coaching as well. So I've been talking to Kevin A. Little bit about that and I, I, I did pull the trigger.

So the Friday Mind, I think originally I thought of coaching cuz I just love like, again talking and being social and helping people. And then I thought, I gotta get my shit together too, and like, and then I thought of this idea, yeah. For this, this app type website. And so I, I've been running with that, but I'm also gonna keep learning.

Like I said, learning is my number one to keep me going. So, doing like a holistic coach institute. So it's, again, it's like not just alcohol focus, but it's like everything in your life. So I'm really excited for that, you know, like mind, body, spirit, that kind of thing. So, yeah, that's, that's where it's going.

Starting April, and I'll keep up the post. Too and, [00:46:00] keep doing re reframe. I, I just added on another day that I'll be doing the forum, so that's a great tool too. Yeah. So I'll be in touch and I'm so, so like thrilled and inspired by re reframe and feel so honored to be here. So I appreciate you so much, Kevin.

You've done a ton for me, so

Kevin: thank you. Yeah, no, you've, I mean, you've had an amazing journey yourself, and you should feel very proud of mm-hmm. everything you've done for yourself and now helping others. Thank you. That's awesome. Sweet. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, everyone, and I will link all of those, the Friday Mind and all that in the show notes.

Be sure to check that out and we will see you again next week.