S2E2 Gina Moffa - Moving On Doesn't Mean Letting Go

[00:00:00] Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframeable podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass.

In today's episode, we talk with Gina Moffa. Gina is a licensed psychotherapist, mental health educator and media consultant in New York City. In practice for nearly two decades, she has helped thousands of people seeking treatment for trauma, grief, as well as challenging life experiences and transitions.

This includes work with Holocaust survivors at 92 y, as well as being a clinical director for a Mount Sinai hospital outpatient program specializing in addictions. She received her master's degree in social work with a specialty in trauma from New York University, and her first book is coming out on August 22nd, called Moving On Doesn't Mean Letting Go, A Modern Guide to [00:01:00] Navigating Loss.

She shares with us ideas on navigating the loss of connections, long held coping mechanisms and identity that can come about when we work on cutting back on or cutting out alcohol from our lives.

My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app.

This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. So without further delay, let's go chat with Gina.

Kevin: Hey Gina. How's it going?

Gina: Hi, Kevin. I'm well. How are you doing today?

Kevin: I'm doing pretty well. Can't complain. Uh, how's your, uh, I was gonna say, how's your week going? How's your summer going too?

Gina: Oh my goodness. Is it summer? I feel like this summer has been raining. I don't know about you, but on the eastern seaboard and I've, and I've been in Colorado now too for a little bit.

Rain is either following me or I'm following it, but it's constant. So my summer's [00:02:00] green.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely green. I definitely, I need to go out and cut the grass. Yeah, it's been raining a lot here lately. I'm in Cleveland, so, uh, not as bad as up in New York I don't think, but, you, yeah, it's still hitting here, so.

Gina: Well, I'll happily send some your way, but, um, it's a good, it's whether like this is really good for like, getting internal and really like doing those deep dives of thinking and feeling and allowing those feelings to come up. So, uh, so it's an interesting thing cause I think some of that is good fodder for therapy.

Kevin: Yeah, cuz you're, I mean, you're stuck inside, right? And there's not, not as much to do. So therefore, uh, it lends itself to probably a little bit more of that. Yeah, that makes sense. For sure. For sure. Well, thank you for joining me today.

Uh, if you want to just kick us off with telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do and what you have going on, uh, and we can go from there.

Gina: Absolutely. Hi everyone, I'm Gina Moffa. I am a licensed clinical social [00:03:00] worker who's trauma informed in grief work. Um, and I have a private practice in New York City.

I have a book coming out called Moving On Doesn't Mean Letting Go. And it is a book on navigating loss. Before all of this, I was working as the clinical director of the Addiction Institute at Mount Sinai St. Luke's Hospital in New York City and so I have a very extensive history in my, my clinical work of working with substance use disorder and different types of addiction.

So I'm really happy to be here today and sort of talk about the intersections of loss, trauma and everything in between.

Kevin: So, Yeah. Thanks. Uh, you know, I was really excited to that you agreed to come on because I think that's such a huge, um, you know, not talking about like grief from loss, like the death of, uh, a loved one or something like that, but, um, just this loss of identity, loss of connection, loss of these, these things [00:04:00] that can happen whenever we start to address and remove or reduce, like how alcohol specifically shows up in our life or any substance.

But yeah that's so prevalent. I know I went through, you know, that feeling of loss, that feeling of, you know, lost identity. Um, yeah. And yeah, it's, it's tough to work through. What, what made you get into this area of grief?

Gina: Well, it started by way of trauma and so /when I left graduate school I had specialized in trauma work and one of the things that continued to come up for me was sort of the idea that there's a before and an after with trauma and we pay a lot of attention to that process, but we don't really, we don't pay attention to the loss and all of the micro losses and secondary losses that we have when we have sort of any kind of big change or traumatic event or, you know, even the idea of giving up alcohol or [00:05:00] drugs and really going through that process of healing and finding a new way of being, that's, that can be really traumatizing for people and we don't ever see or give any credence or respect or honor to the fact that you're sitting there in a void of loss, and now you have to sort of rebuild your life and rebuild your identity and rebuild what your, your rituals are for coping with hard days even. /So it felt really important to me to spend more of my time and my energy sort of focusing on really trauma and grief together.

I, I think of them as sisters, but also to really look more at the loss aspect because so many of us, I mean, trauma's the biggest buzzword out there now, but yet so many of us still shy away from loss and all of the intricacies that, you know, trauma or big changes or you know, that or anything like that can bring to us.

[00:06:00] So that's really kind of why I started doing more of that was really by way of going through trauma and really wanting to understand more of the different angles, um, more of the after effects.

Kevin: Yeah. I love how you said about like the phrase that you threw out was, micro losses. Just cuz I think it's, you know, we see, and correct me if I'm off track here, but you know, you see lo we have loss, whatever that loss might be.

Um, and we, we focus so much on that. But then there are all these other things that are like unexpected that, you know, kind of follow behind it that we, we didn't even, we weren't planning on, we weren't thinking about we, but they just show up and, and you know, maybe there are a little bit, maybe they're just like these little things that, uh, we, we never would've thought of before or thought of would've mattered.

Mm-hmm. But it can be something that is, uh, still so, impactful or hard to get over. [00:07:00] Um, yeah. How do we process? Absolutely all of that.

Gina: Absolutely. I love the way that you just said that, you know, and I'm thinking even just before we started and you said, you know, I lost my best friend in alcohol.

Yeah. You know, and it's, we know that. And then I, I follow up with, and you lost your sense of being able to know what to do when things got hard. Yeah. Because you had that thing to go to. Yeah. Um, and it's stuff and Right. And I'll, I'll call that a ritual, even though it's really a coping mechanism. But I think one of the things we, we so often just don't honor is the way that, okay, so if we look at grief in any aspect, sort of, it's kind of that moment where you're like, now what?

Yeah. Right. So if you're coming out of rehab for example, or you're coming out of treatment and something really hard happens and now you don't have that thing that to go to that you did and you're in that now, what, that is really also what happens when we lose people in our lives. Right. That, that person that's predictable and they're always, you know, there [00:08:00] for us or.

You know, they're a family member, so we just take for granted that they're there and it's sort of, okay, now what, how does my role change? And how does, how does my, how do my coping mechanisms change? How do, how do, What path do I go down next in order to get to this new place? And so I think one of the first things we have to do is really just take that sacred pause and say, okay, I'm at that place where I'm saying, now what I know that these people, places and things that I had before are no longer good for me, or they're no longer the things that I can turn to.

Or I know that they're poisonous, toxic, et cetera, but I don't know what's next. And I think especially with these days in post Covid, the world is going so fast that we're always trying to get the cart before the horse, and we're planning five years ahead and all of that. And yet you and I know it's like that one day at a time.

And I always say where we [00:09:00] start is really just with our bodies taking as good care as we possibly can. As simple and lame as that may sound, I wasn't doing that before. So how do I take care of my body now today? How, how can I give it water instead of what I was giving it before? Or how can I get, move it in a way that doesn't get my nervous system in a state of fight or flight?

You know? And it's just really getting, I say slow everything down and take it that one day at a time and get straight to the body because trauma and grief are both a full body experience and need to be healed and looked at and honored in the body. And so that's kind of where I would say we start.

Kevin: Yeah.

And, and that can be, that, that can be one of the hardest things we do too, is like, cuz we are maybe always so. Go, go, go. Looking so far ahead and, um, using alcohol, you know, in this case as something that gets us through that [00:10:00]coping mechanism that we can use to get through stress, get through anxiety, get through sadness, joy, whatever that feeling might be.

Um, and you know, I, I know personally when I stopped and said, okay, I need to change. I can't keep doing this anymore. I was still looking out so far ahead, like, okay, but what about I. That vacation. What about that wedding next year? What about, you know, and how am I going to get through stressful times at work and deadlines, and what am I gonna do?

It was just the, the spiral of what now. And over time, I, I learned that. Okay. I, I try, I've learned I'm not, I'm not good at it. Uh, but I, I work on it of bringing it back to the now, right? Okay all I have is today. I can't focus on what's coming down the road there.

So what can I do today to help myself? Um, Yeah, and I don't always make the right decisions on that still, but you know, it's human, something that I work on. [00:11:00] Yeah,

Gina: totally. And I mean, part of, part of the healing and grieving process is giving ourselves that sense of self-compassion and grace for stumbling and for not getting it right.

I mean, if we could get everything right, we wouldn't be like human, we're just clumsy. That's all there is to it, you know? And I think it's really important. Look, I think the only thing we can do is stay in the now, but if we needed to, what we can do to prepare for the future is to get to know ourselves as well as we possibly can.

And what that can look like is like, okay, so let me really get to know my triggers instead of befriending that alcohol, let me befriend my triggers, let me befriend the things that make me wanna drink. Instead of me not knowing how to cope. Let me look at this as, you know, instead of me saying like, Ugh, that's what I do to.

That's a self-destructive action that I take. Right? That's a, that's another buzz term. I like to look at it as, what is my rhythm for when [00:12:00] things are hard and how can I go along with this rhythm and understand it in a new way so that I can lean into that, allow whatever comes up to come up, be present with it in that moment, not judge it, not try to push it away.

You know, not any of that stuff, run away from it, but really be present with it. And some of the stuff I talk about in my book really is about grief rhythms, right? And it's just a matter of getting to know ourselves and how we cope with things that feel hard. And once we do that, I think we can allow the cycles to come.

And get to know ourselves and say like, you know, for one, for example, one of them is the mover, right? Somebody who instead of like, wanting to feel, they just move, move, move and keep busy and all of that, right? Yeah. It's like, oh, I know that I'm in that place right now. Like, cool. The more you know, right?

And so I think that's all we can do is really just what you said is try as best we can to give ourselves that compassion, that [00:13:00] grace, but also to get to know ourselves radically. You know? I wanna know exactly what triggers me. I wanna know what sets me off. I wanna know what my, you know, what happens when I allow that bad thought to turn into a bad feeling, to turn into a behavior.

Um, because the more we know about ourselves, the more kind of hilarious it all is, cuz we're just imperfect, clumsy people. Yeah.

Kevin: Uh, Yeah, that is kind of funny when you put it like that. Um, I, I could, I immediately thought back to some of the things I was doing early on that I was looking back on. It's like, you know, it's just beating myself up for just doing the things that I always did for like 20 years.

Uh, it was like, okay, well how did, why, how did that help me? Right. How did that make things better? I love how you said befriend your triggers. Because a lot of people, myself included, like, um, I'll probably say that all the time, like myself included, cuz I, you know, I, yeah, yeah. My, uh, that, you know, I fought those [00:14:00] triggers, fought those things like, how do I fix this?

How do I get through this? How do I just, why can't th why can't I make this go away? So when you, when you say befriend a trigger, like what, what's some thoughts behind that, that someone could take and use in like a way to approach it? Um, you know, I, I would always say I learned this from somewhere. I can't pinpoint where, but I would tell myself to get curious about it.

Um, yeah. Where did that come from? What, what, what, what just happened? Like what, why? Yeah. Okay. I got stressed out and I, I wanted to drink, but where did it really come from? And I can backtrack it like hours into just a comment that someone made earlier in the day, perhaps. But I didn't know that unless I looked at it and, and tried to dig a little bit deeper, um, than just think like, yeah, stressed drink.

Gina: Absolutely. And if you, and just knowing that in a way is part of the befriending, right? The curiosity, but it's also that it gives you sort of a [00:15:00] fork in the road, right? So if we know, for example, a trigger can be having a fight with someone we love, right? And we know that when that happens and that person says that one thing that pushes our buttons and then that causes us to drink.

There's a choice right there. And I can say, okay, I know that when so-and-so says this thing to me, or we get into the same argument, or we have this pattern of fighting over the same things, that this is the path I take. I'm gonna befriend myself instead, and I'm gonna befriend that trigger by making a different choice.

And this is a practice, by the way. This is not something that we can do one to three times and get it right, but it's as many things are in life. Especially with being present and getting to know ourselves. It's really a practice of saying, I can, I can self-destruct, right? I can. I can make a choice that hurts me in the end because I've been triggered by this painful thing.

And use this as a coping skill to hurt myself or numb myself or run away from [00:16:00] that feeling. Even though I know when I sober up, that feeling will still be there. Or I can befriend it and say, okay, wow. Like. That really hurt me. I continue to be hurt by the same thing, but what can I do to nourish myself instead, what can I do to comfort myself?

Who can I call to get some comfort and love and support that I need, you know, and, and to do whatever, you know, I would always say make a list. What does it look like to befriend your triggers? And it always involves connection of some kind with self and others, and compassion, right? So, can I give myself compassion and with with whom can I get compassion in my life?

And I think that's it, but it starts with that sense of curiosity. So you're already doing it, Kevin?

Kevin: Yeah. Uh, yes. I've been very curious over the last four years, that's for sure. But as things come up but that's one, but that's it. Like before that, you know, in the first three decades or four decades of my life, uh, whatever, um, [00:17:00]you know, I just.

Put my head down and, and my rhythm, my rhythm, as you said earlier, was to plow through things and say, I was fine. And, you know, nothing bothered me and work, work, work. And oh, here, let me grab this crutch to help me along, to help me, you know, walk through that. Uh, so putting that crutch down, you know, obviously threw off my rhythm.

And, and that's, that's so important when you talk about like, just that basically like the patience, uh, oh no, sorry. You said, I love this word too. Practice, right? I mean, we, practice is such a great word to remember for any of this stuff because, you know, we, we learned over time one way to do things or a couple ways to do, to get through stress, to get through the tough times, to get through grief, to get through.

Um, Joy, like any emotion. Yeah. And we practiced it over time by, Hey, let's go get a drink. Hey, [00:18:00] let's, let's do this. Oh, I'm, I need, I need a drink and so we practiced it already. Guess what? Just like any, you know, sporting event or anything like that, you gotta practice to get better at, to, to learn a different way.

Um, and, and so that practice can be so important to remember, uh, to build into your day, build into your life going forward, whether you're looking to cut back, whether you're looking to quit.

Gina: It's so true. And I mean, I think one of the things that's really hard for people to grasp who are going through any kind of treatment, the process is forever.

There's no end date. Yeah. And I think that can be really overwhelming for people who are like, well, I've got 30 days and then I'm good. And it's like, Nope. You have every day for the rest of your life. That you get to practice this. And for, for most people, and this is completely understandable, that is mind-blowingly, overwhelmingly, horrifically,[00:19:00]painful to hear and terrifying. And that is why it's so important to say it's a practice. It's one day at a time. We have to give ourselves that sense of grace and like compassion. But mostly we have to rebuild a life so that every day can feel easier. Cuz if you're surrounded with the same things, the same people, the same stressors, the same pain, same traumas, you know, and you're, it's, that's you're, it's gonna make it like you're carrying stones in your pockets every single day.

So the hope is that we can set ourselves up so that every single day going forward, Gives us the chance to have it a little bit easier and to that, so that that practice and that sense of being present with ourselves and whatever that inner stuff is, cuz it doesn't go away, just cuz we see it. It's just, it, you know, it's still there.

It's just that we're gonna learn to engage and tango with it differently and that can be really hard for a lot of people and it's so understandable. So I sit here with empathy, like [00:20:00] I know what I'm saying. It sounds easy. Yeah. But I know how hard it is day by day.

Kevin: Yeah. I think everybody knows like that easier said than done for sure. But, focusing on, uh, just taking it day by day is hard. Focusing on, oh, this is gonna be forever is hard, but, you know, it's just that use. I think we all have to kind of wrap our head around the way that works best for us. Right? Some people can say like, I will never ever do this thing again, whatever it is.

And others are be like, I'm taking it one day at a time for the rest of my life. And, and two ends of the spectrum. For me I don't, I still don't say like, I'm never gonna drink again cuz I don't, I don't like saying that. It just doesn't work for me in my head. Um, cuz I'm, I I always joke and say, I don't know what I'm gonna feel like when I'm 70, when I'm 80.

If I make it there, like, who knows? I don't have to care about that right now though. So I, I'm just focused on working on now and I know that's [00:21:00] good enough. It took me a long time to get there though, because when I started my process, you know, mine was started. I got a therapist and I. I immediately kind of was motivated and worked with with her to take a break from drinking.

But the entire time I was like, okay, but when's a good time to reintroduce it? How when can I moderate better? When can I do this? Like, I was always thinking about, okay, but then what? Then what? Then when can I do it? And it was only by me just continuing day by day to work on it and focus on it, whatever it was.

Cuz I did go back and moderate and I did try that. And then I did go back and try alcohol free again. And that's where I'm at now because I realized by keeping going, by practicing mm-hmm. I found the thing that helped me, that worked for me. And it, it took, I don't know how many days to get there. I don't, you know, I don't, don't, you don't, you never know when the, when it's, [00:22:00] the clock starts on something like that.

And, and when so true, you know, you finally, uh, make the decision or whatever that, that you're done or, or moving on. Um, but just keeping going, right? Just keep practicing is going to be the biggest thing that we can do, I think.

Gina: A hundred percent. And you know, I think, you know, because I'm worked primarily with people who've endured different types of trauma and loss, to me it's like, and you know, and a lot of the people with whom I work also go towards substances to not feel that loss.

So it's sort of like that cycle where you don't know which one is the chicken and which one is the egg sometimes. But I think, I think it's so important that within that practice and all of that, that we allow ourselves to feel and to really meet all of those things that we were trying to run away from and all of those things that come up when we stop moving and stop numbing and [00:23:00] stop running.

Knowing though that it's gonna hurt and it can be terrifying. And so to not really go it alone. And, and I think that, you know, that can be really hard cuz there's not a lot of accc easy access to help, you know, so I think, I mean, there are meetings of course, but I think, you know, for, for therapy and, you know, kind of more structured treatment, it's can be really hard to access that.

And so it's, it's, it makes it sort of harder, that's all.

Kevin: Yeah. And, and you mentioned before about mm-hmm. One of the big things is getting that connection right? With people, um, yeah. Connecting with yourself, connecting with others, and speaking of grief with that connection is we can sometimes lose connections we've had we lose friendships because, we used to always go out and drink together, and now I'm not drinking for example, and so what are we gonna do?

Okay. It depends on the friendship, right? It depends. I mean, it's, if it's a [00:24:00] really good friend and they're comfortable with themselves and that maybe we switch to coffee instead of that going to a bar. But there are those, there are a lot of people who don't understand or don't want to change or don't want you to change.

Um, and we lose friends because of it, at least in the short term. And, you know, what, how can we go about dealing with that loss of connection there mm-hmm. And then finding other connection that can help us.

Gina: Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the more painful losses. With any change, right? Even with any kind of grief.

Right. Uh, bringing myself, you know, when I lost my mom a couple of years back, the people that I thought would be there for me weren't, they really couldn't handle the change to me. And so I see, and I see it with anyone who's gone through a loss or a trauma or a really big change, like, you know, stopping, taking substances that people don't know how to identify with the new [00:25:00] you.

They don't, they're afraid of it. And what it does is it also mirrors to them the things they need to look at and whether it's mortality or their own behaviors or, you know, the, their own coping mechanisms. But I think when you stop drinking and people know you as somebody that they go out with and have fun with, and you know, life is enhanced and your friendship is enhanced by, say alcohol, for example, it's like, okay, what do we really have in common anymore then? Was this our common denominator? And because it's not just that the actions we're doing are different now, like getting coffee versus get going to the bar, but how I relate to you is different. Who I am is different because now I'm going through this soul searching journey that can be really painful and it changes me.

I'm no longer that same person anymore, or at least I won't be. And so there's so many different levels on which we lose and we lose people in our lives if, if they aren't [00:26:00] able to meet us where we are at this point. And sometimes we don't wanna meet them there either. They may be a trigger, you know, they may be a part of that, that toxic stuff that we are a part of.

And that's even harder in a way for us to say, I love you, you're totally good, but my life is different now and I can't be around you. And that is hard and painful. And so it's, we grieve decisions that we make too. We grieve the good things for us too. And it makes it really tricky. But the people in our lives that can support us and be there when we need them to be, to give us those pep talks when we're feeling low and we think we might relapse, or you know, those friends who can say, look Kevin, I know that you don't promise that you're not gonna drink forever.

And I know if something really hard happens in your life that's unexpected and tragic, that this could be a really treacherous time for you. Let's prepare. Like let just know that I'm your lifeline. Just know you can call me and I'm gonna be here to help you, you [00:27:00] know, through that sticky tar pit. And I think that just sometimes knowing that doesn't necessarily make it always easier, but it sure gives us a sense that we can, in a way we couldn't have before.

And so I think we have to rebuild those new connections in that way and just say, this is. This is what could happen. This is who I, who I am now, and who I could be or how I could fall. And I need people who won't celebrate my fall by saying, no problem, let's just go get a beer cuz like, shit's already hit the fan.

Yeah. You know?

Kevin: Yeah. Cuz that, that's something that, uh, uh, people worry about too, is like, okay, well I, I don't want to tell people. I, I try and act like nothing's changed because I don't want to tell people I am making this change because what if I fail? What if? And that goes back to this is a practice.

This we we're not gonna be perfect we're, we are just working through this. And so how can we frame it in a way that, um, [00:28:00] Isn't like, Hey, I'm never drinking again and I'm gonna be perfect. And, you know, not that anybody really says that, but you know, I'm just working on myself. I'm just trying to work on this thing.

You know, I hope that you can support me. I hope that you can be there for me. It may not be perfect. I'm not perfect. Um, but I'm just working on myself. Please support me in that. And that's, I say that I, you know, me, I had trouble, I have trouble saying things like that to people, uh, because I'm like, I'm fine.

Gina: Well, how is that going? Does it feel any different? The more you do it,

Kevin: the more you do it. Yeah. The more you know, the more I think you open up and share with people, it becomes so much easier to do that. But I think it's also finding your own voice is so important because I can tell someone like, Hey, why don't you just tell this person this?

That might not feel right to them because I don't know how, you know, everything that they would go through or they've gone through and how they [00:29:00] interacted with this person and this person's personality they do. Right. How can you, so, you know, controlling, I, I always like to say like, I like to control my own narrative and, and kind of present myself in a way that, you know, it, it's not that it's disingenuous, but depending on who I'm talking to, I'm gonna tell you something different or, you know, a close friend I can unload some of that stuff on.

But, um, I, if it's not, if it's just an acquaintance that I know, like, yeah, I can, I can tell them what I'm doing. Um, you know, if I wanna be like, oh, I'm, it's not that I'm never gonna drink again, it's that I'm doing, uh, a challenge or I'm not drinking this month. Or, you know, maybe I dumbed it down a little bit, uh, for them to make it more palatable.

But it's finding that voice. And the more that we do that and say that it became easier for me. I'll say that. Yeah. I don't say it becomes, it, it's hard. Like, it, it does get easier the more we do something, right? It's like with anything else, um, we [00:30:00] gain that comfort.

Gina: No, I give you so much credit, and I think it's, I think you're really right because there's no recipe for everyone and you have different relationships with different people and our private life is still our private life. So no, it's not like we're walking around like with our heart on our sleeve now, like, Hey, it's good to see you.

It's been 20 years since we worked together. Like I'm working on sobriety now, or Yeah, I've decided that I'm, you know, I'm sober curious these days. So, but I think the, I think for me, even in my life, and maybe this goes for all of us, maybe since Covid, right? Because there's been an influx of people who've come to see me that decided to give up alcohol because they just don't like the way it makes them be in the world or feel in the world anymore, but it's kind of like, all right, so how do we wanna.

How do we wanna tell our truth? And can we fill our lives with more and more people who resonate with that truth? So it doesn't feel like we have to come up with different stories for different [00:31:00] levels. But obviously we're always gonna have like colleagues and people that we don't, you know, like so in our in-laws sisters boyfriend who chugs Coors Light or whatever, but I have a client who I remember decided that she wanted to give up alcohol and wrote a letter, wrote an email, and included basically everyone in her contacts and kind of told the story of really what it had done to her life and her decision to stop and really asking people to either understand step ba, step back, or support her. And we were really blown away by the results of the people who were like, wow, I am like, I'm right there with you, or I'm here if you need me.

Or let's go out to dinner and talk about a plan. Or, I'm someone you can call if you need, you know, a last minute help people that she didn't expect. And I think in a way I was a huge risk, right? Because yeah, you know, you're really putting it out there, but at the same time to get a, a positive surprise from people that [00:32:00] can be a lifeline for you.

It was it, I mean, it was pretty remarkable. And so I'm not saying that's for everybody, but I do think in having as many people in our lives, That we can trust. Whether that means the people already in our lives in our past or people we meet along the way going forward is really the key at this point. Um, cuz it's a lonely world out there and we're always sort of seeking I either comfort connection or like something to just fill that void and it's really hard.

Kevin: Yeah. And that is sad cause it, it is a lonely world, but every, everybody's seeking connection, right? And it's just like we need to almost just, it, it's hard. We have to put ourself out there like this person did. I mean, that's amazing to uh, you know, just to send it out to as many people as you know, and just wait.

Right? I mean that, that period it can, is probably terrifying, um, to wait and see. But [00:33:00] then once you start getting people, you know, coming in, like, I'm here for you and all that, then it's like, that weight off your shoulders. Um, And, and finding that can be tough. I mean, because, you know, I always say too, like, you know, it's one thing to do that if you can do that and blast it out to everybody.

Awesome. Um, but I also say like, like start small, right? Like, you, you probably know who's gonna support you. So start there, like, start with that person or you know, find like-minded people. Like, you know, with Reframe we have community meetings every day. There's a forum in the app that people can go to and, and see.

And just, even if you're not like sharing, you can just listen and just hear other people, you know, see other people talking about this and realize like, you're not alone. Um, I think that's huge for the connection piece.

Gina: A hundred percent. I love reframe. Um, I'm checking it out myself just to, you know, it's, it's really, it is a remarkable thread that you have there for people to hold onto.

It's like Goam records, [00:34:00] even if they don't speak, even if they're not ready to, and exactly what you said is to start small. You know, this was a really huge risk. Um, and some people are that personality, right, where they like jump out of planes and, you know, they scale mountains and whatever. So this is that kind of personality where I'm gonna go big or go home.

But I think even just the decision to do things differently and to meet yourself in a different way is so courageous. And I think even as, as that can sound lame or simplistic or Pollyanna or whatever, but I think just that decision, even just to go on reframe, you know, and just say, I'm just gonna be here and check it out.

Um, we don't give ourselves enough credit for these moments that we make the right decision or we do the next best thing. Um, we just don't give ourselves enough credit for the good stuff we do.

Kevin: No, that's 100% true. I agree with that. That's, uh, we're so used to looking for the negative [00:35:00] or putting ourself down or we're not good enough or, oh, yeah.

Okay. I, I went a week without drinking, but then I drank last night. Like it's all, it's all gone. Right? That, that seven days are, are gone and no, you had seven days. You, you drank last night. What are you gonna do now? What are you gonna do tomorrow? Yeah. Um, you know, what, what, how can you move forward? How can you take that prac as practice and, um, learn from what happened?

Should I have reached out? Should I have connected with somebody? Should I have done something else?

Gina: And I think it's just even, yeah, even just doing that and like taking back that sense of control, because otherwise it feels like you just, you lose everything and there's nothing else.

Like what's, what's the point? Right? And you're back at that place where you're like, now what? But really it's, it is that keep going moment. You already made this decision. We just keep going. And really a lot like grief, right? The grief process is all about surrender. And, and I think [00:36:00] so is the process of deciding to stop substance use, um, is really about the surrender of it.

Like, I can't do it this way anymore. I I don't have the control over this and here's what I can control though. And it's that day by day choice. So if I didn't, if I, if I couldn't surrender to that yesterday, like here today, I'm, I'm back at it. Um, yeah, but that's more of that grace that we don't give ourselves.

Kevin: Surrender. Yeah. That's the perfect word, I think for it. I mean, and, and surrender. Like, I can't keep doing this in this way. What, and, you know, whatever that way is. Um, and it's going, and not comparing too, right? Like, oh, well this, this person is, is doing it. My, my friend is, is doing this the exact same way.

Why do I feel this way? No. I think be honest with your feelings, right? Be honest with your experience and realize that nobody else would you agree with this. Nobody else gets to really weigh in on how you feel there [00:37:00]

Gina: a hundred percent. Nobody has permission to enter that internal world and give you their judgment in that way.

0% of the people, although I will add that people do. Oh yeah. Right? That's their favorite thing to do is, is weigh in on it. But, but they don't have permission. And I think part of the process is also about, and the grieving process too, right? Is and is really about boundaries and deciding what you will allow in what you will, how you will allow it in what you internalize.

And that's also a practice. I mean, we're pretty shit at boundaries cuz people like to. Pounce all over them and break them any chance they get. Cuz it's, that's kind of the way, the way the world works sometimes. Yeah. But yeah, people don't get the, they don't get the permission to weigh in.

Kevin: I know that took me a long time to figure out, um, and I hear it a lot just with people worrying about what other people are gonna say.

What, what are, what's this person gonna think? Like, I, you [00:38:00] know, we used to drink all the time together and now we're not like, okay, that's fine, but why are you doing this? What is the reason that you are doing this? And it's just like, you kinda just keep focusing on that. Because yeah, everybody's gonna have an opinion.

I mean, everybody's gonna have their thoughts on the matter. Um, but, you know, we can't allow that to kind of sway ourselves. Um, when, when dealing with. One, one question that popped up earlier, like when dealing with this loss, let's say, of, um, of this friend alcohol that we might have had, what are the best ways potentially to grieve that loss but also move forward? Because I'm more of the mindset I try to focus on, okay. I try to reframe it to you. Shocking. Unintended, I guess. Yeah. And just say like, how, what am I gaining from this? Right. Um, but I think there is still. You know, a lot of times I think we do still need to [00:39:00] grieve the loss of this thing.

Yes, it's great to focus on gain and moving forward and, and all the positive things, but do we need closure? Is there something there that people can focus on or do that can be helpful?

Gina: Yeah. You know, I think one of the things I always worry about with this sort of thing is this sense of like spiritual bypassing and, you know, emotional bypassing and toxic positivity.

I think that we have to be really careful of not jumping ahead to the moving on and letting go and like the good vibes and all of that. I think it's really important to focus on like the, the darker feelings that will come up, and I think it's really important to honor the fact that this substance, whether, so let's, for example, use the alcohol.

It, it did something for you that. Was so important that it was a really big part of your life. And now you have, and your brain, by the way, from the standpoint of the brain, [00:40:00] that was a predictable, loving, if not sometimes, you know, um, adv adversary to you, but from the standpoint of your brain, this was something that gave you comfort.

This was a predictable comfort. And so even if we weren't talking about emotions and we were just talking about the chemicals in our brain, we have to totally now renegotiate where that place is in the world. What, what do we fill with that place? What, what has become of this, this best friend of ours, and do we maintain the relationship with it or something like it while it's no longer there?

So it's, it's. It's a really double-edged sword. So I know I'm getting a little bit complicated with my neuroscience in a sense. I'm trying to keep it simple cause you know, but I think it's a really important Get complicated. Go for it. No, but I think it's really important to know that it's not as easy to say I'm just gonna give this up.

For a lot of people, this has become something that where, for [00:41:00] example, our nervous system is a smoke alarm, right? It's imagine, it's always, always scanning for danger. It's always scanning for a stressor. It's always scanning to keep us alive and survive. And when we feel like, for example, people who have endured traumas or any kind of abuse, you know, or you're, I mean, look, there are people who use alcohol to enhance joy.

Of course, of course. But I'm talking about more of the coping mechanism, the numbing mechanism. And when we're going through that, right, we've ta now we take that away. That danger comes back in our, in our nervous system. So what do we do with that? That sense of like, oh my God, something hard has happened.

These feelings are here, and I don't know what to do with them because normally I, I numb them or I soothe them with this thing that instantly, you know, within 20 minutes it's, it's all gone. And you know, now it's not there. So now I'm in a panic mode and we have to go [00:42:00] through that from the standpoint of the brain.

We have to renegotiate how we can help our nervous system find a sense of. Peace, groundedness, centeredness, and calm again. So we have to do that on top of feel, the things that we didn't wanna feel to begin with. Yeah. And people wonder why it's so fucking hard. It's physically, you know what I mean? Yeah.

It's just layers of, of really trying to renegotiate who we are, how we deal with survival, how we deal with our nervous system. Right. A lot of people are born with high adrenaline and high anxiety, and so this isn't something that changes. This is something that makes it much more traumatizing when they go through something hard.

And we have to think of all of these different layers if we're going to kind of take something away. So I always say, if we're gonna take something away that's given us. Hope, uh, calm, you know, a sense of being [00:43:00] alive and sooth and soothing and comfort. We better replace that with something damn good because we, it, it takes so much then to just live in that void.

We can't just cover it up with sparkles and saying like, oh, let's just move. Keep it moving. Let's just let it go. We can, we can just move on. It is hard, and I think even when people are in a place of like, I can quit this cold Turkey, no problem. It doesn't mean that the things that caused them to go to that in the beginning are gone.

It just means that they have to actually face it in a new way, and that is, can be complicated, traumatized, re-traumatizing and really terrifying. And so that's why I say go slowly, allow the feelings to come up whatever they are, but do it in a safe way because people who usually go to substances or not used to feeling safe, Okay.

And so we have to also redefine what safety looks like in our [00:44:00] own bodies, in our own lives and with other people. And so basically I'm, it's a tall order on how we sort of move forward, but nobody gets to decide how you feel safe. You do? Yeah. And, and so I say, you know, if you can, that's why it's so important to connect with people who make your nervous system feel safe.

Not just people who say, you know, Kevin, I'm a safe place. You can tell me anything. Your body's gonna tell me whether I'm safe or not. Not, not me. And, um, I think I took a country road here. Now. I lost my place of where, where I was really going with this. But my, but my hope is, is that really we just know that we can't bypass the hard sticky shit that comes with giving something up that we have known to be, yeah.

A best friend, a comfort and a placeholder for any of this shit we just have never wanted to feel or couldn't because we weren't given the tools [00:45:00] to right? So many of us are taught that bad feelings are bad and don't feel them, or you know, if we feel them, they'll never go away. Or they may destroy us.

There's a million feelings that feelings don't destroy us. Right. But, but we've been taught sometimes that they do, especially in Western society. Yeah. So we do whatever we can to avoid that. And in turn, even our neuroscience follows suit. And so it's really, it's a big feat. And so I give so much credit to every single, that's why I say we have to give ourselves credit for the moments we do something good.

Because it's not easy. Yeah. And it's courageous to take that first step and there's a lot that comes with it that we, we have to sit with.

Kevin: Yeah. And yeah. And I love how you called out too, Those, like bad feelings. Those, you know, I, I hate using good and bad for like, anything anymore because I'm like, nothing is really good or bad necessarily.

Like, yeah. Oh, it's bad if I cry, it's bad if I, you know, get angry or something like [00:46:00] that. I'm like, no. Like, that's telling me something that's, you know, I, yeah, I always say I have tear ducts for a reason. Right. I mean, I wouldn't have them if I, if I weren't there for me to, to use and soothe myself or whatever that might be, you know?

But, anger is pointing me towards something like, so how can I, it's hard to sit with that. It's hard to, you know, sadness, anger, um, stress, anxiety, depression, all those things like that it can point me in the direction of what I maybe need to work on or. It's not a bad thing. If I feel those things, but it's hard like telling yourself I can get through this without drinking, for instance.

I can get through this. I mean, that's, you know, because until you prove it to yourself the first thing I thought of was like, there's no way I can get through this without drinking. Yeah. Um, and it, it just took, it takes what it takes, it's different for everybody, right. So, you know, it it, [00:47:00] it took for me talking with somebody, talking, saying these things out loud to somebody for like the first time in my life in order to even start to look at 'em, even start to shine that light on them.

Um, because that was scary. But it keeps going back to doing what you need to do for yourself, not for anyone else. Um, you know, so important to focus on.

Gina: It's so important to focus on what we need. And I think even just the gentleness, right? I talk a lot about tenderness in my grief work with people because we're just not bred to be tender with ourselves.

And so I sometimes will say like, look, I'll put my hand on my heart and say, if I'm not gonna take this drink, like what do I need? Like what do I need to feel? What, what needs to be heard within me? What needs to be soothed? What needs to be tended to, um, and to, to do my best to answer that in a loving, tender way.

It isn't easy. Again, I say over and over, that's the [00:48:00] practice. If I'm not gonna do what I always did, and I can put my hand on my heart just as I'm doing with you right now and say, what is it that I need? What needs to be felt? What is the, what is, what is the question that's coming up for me that makes me wanna go to this thing?

Um, and what do I need to be feeling that I keep wanting to push down? Because it's really, really, Always about sort of chasing or avoiding a feeling. And you know, emotions a lot of the time are better in motion. Right. Anxiety. Anger, those are things we have to move through our bodies. So when we sit down and we drink, we're just, we're, we're piling on top of it.

Right. It doesn't make us less angry. Yeah. And more times it makes us more angry. And so I always say like, if you're feeling anxious, if you're feeling angry, move your body. Hit something, not like a pillow, you know, like not a person or an animal.

Kevin: Yeah. A pillow. Yeah.

Gina: But, you know, and so those are [00:49:00] the things that are good to keep us, to keep our nervous system sort of like, we don't want it to go into a sense of fight or flight. But like if you're sitting with anxiety, don't sit with it. Say, okay, like, and my hand is on my heart. What do I need? I'm feeling, oh, I'm feeling anxious. Let me get up and take a walk. Let, let me get my Swiffer and like hit my pillow with it or something, you know, whatever it may be.

Or, you know, let me get on my Peloton. I don't know what it is, whatever it is, but to remember that emotions like anger and anxiety are better in motion. And to really sort of continue to lean in with whatever it is that you need because you do have, you have to put yourself first. And it really is, again, I'll go back to kind of what I said in the beginning is about really getting to know ourselves, our triggers, our feelings, what comes up when, and how to really tend to it in a way that doesn't push it away or flavors it with toxic positivity.

So yeah, and it's, it's all possible [00:50:00] obviously, but it's a journey and it's a process and. It's probably the most courageous thing we will do for ourselves.

Kevin: Yeah, 100%. And yeah, and it's because, because it is hard. It's not taught to us. It's not, I mean, no, you know, the whole thought of like, know thyself.

Like know, getting to know your, or getting to know yourself. Um, it's scary. Like, I didn't, I stopped drinking at 39 years old, 40 years old, and I was like, who the hell am I? Like what have I been doing all these? Oh, I, I work, um, you know, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm a accountant, uh, you know, at the time.

And, and mm-hmm. I don't know what else. And I drink but that was okay. Like I, I gave myself permission to be like, Okay, I can figure this out. Like it, it's, [00:51:00] I can work on myself and I don't have to have all the answers right away. Um, because that, that again goes to the, I wanna know like, where am I going with this?

When is this gonna happen? Is it gonna take 21 days? Is it gonna take 30 days? Is it, you know, those, those types of thoughts just flood in and and as you were saying too about the, I love that emotions are better in motion. Um, I'm totally using that. Um, because follow your, it's so true.

Yeah. Because it's so true. Because it's like, um, whenever I am struggling with something, my natural inclination is to just sit with it. My body, my mind wants to just sit in that and it takes effort to. Not, it takes effort. Yeah. Because maybe, I don't know if that's because I sat with it with alcohol but it takes effort to go against the grain there.

Gina: I'm gonna follow up with you and I'm gonna, I'm gonna check in with you now and I'm gonna see if you've been, if you've been using your [00:52:00] motion, when things, when you feel anxious, and, and look, it can be as easy as like doing 15 jumping jacks if you can't go out and take a walk, you know, and just seeing if it makes a difference.

Um, for you, it is really hard and it isn't just with drinking, right? We're not modeled to feel our feelings, so we're modeled to push them down or to avoid them or to pretend they don't exist or compartmentalize them, whatever. So it makes sense that none of us, it doesn't come naturally to move to sort of say, okay, I notice what I'm feeling is anxious.

I'm not gonna actually do what C B T says, right? Which is, to me, nobody can see me right now, but I'm basically putting my hand by my neck and saying like, it's, it's like therapy from the neck and above. And that's not what we need. We need a whole body therapy. And so if you're going to someone and you're just talking to someone, you're still just sitting in the feelings and that's great.

Obviously talking is wonderful, but I always say add to it. What else can we add to it? Let's make it a [00:53:00] really great salad. What makes your salad great? It's not just lettuce. Let's add to it. What else can we bring in there that's gonna make this really nutritious and wonderful and great? And, and it's gonna be a whole body thing.

So if anybody is listening and it's, and therapy is good and working, I'd say, great, I'm so happy. Keep that. And what else can we do? What else can we do to bring in the body? Um, yeah. And I'm just gonna check in, you know, like, just notice with yourself, you're angry, you're anxious, any of those types of feelings.

Just shake it out, put on a song that you love and dance to it. I don't care what you do, but move your body.

Kevin: Uh, I, I, I love using music. I will not be dancing, that's for sure. Um, but, uh, I will throw on a song very loud and maybe rock out to it a little bit. Um, I'll take it. Yeah. Uh, and, and, and what we, we talked about this at the, like before, uh, we started here about how it's, you mentioned about like nobody wants to do this or it's not [00:54:00] natural.

And I had mentioned too about like just dealing with grief or addressing grief and it's an uncomfortable topic for me as a, whether it's just me or me as a guy, or me, it was, you know, whatever. whatever it is, Just like talking about when I feel sad, talking about when I, you know, am upset, talking about talking, I'll just leave it at that. Talking, um, can be, can be difficult. And so finding ways to get around that has been tough. One that I always bring up is I journal another one therapy. Um, I started journaling because I would journal and share that with my therapist. Like, you know, that was part, yeah. You know, that was part of my process.

But just getting those thoughts out, that was a way for me to do it in a safe space for me to process it and then share it when I was ready with other people. Um, but again, that was me. So finding that way that, that you connect with, I think. Is important. I, I dunno how many times I said that so far. This, [00:55:00] uh, this time.

Keep saying it this time.

Gina: Yeah. Keep saying it because I think people, you know, one of the things that can be hard is we see other people doing it and succeeding, and then we look at it and we're not succeeding or we don't feel like we are, and we're doing it their way and we don't understand why. And so we blame ourselves and we feel like a failure, and then we wonder why we're doing it to begin with.

And you know, and I say it's the same thing with grieving, right? Like, everyone grieves differently because everyone has a different relationship with the thing that they're giving up or the thing they have lost, right? Like, I don't know what relationship, what, what alcohol meant to you specifically to Kevin.

So you're gonna have your own grief process with letting that go and how that works for you and finding new rituals and rebuilding your life. The, and so will Sally. You know, and I think what, what can be scary about that is, is just that, right? There's no. There's no blueprint, there's no map for, for landing in this foreign landscape.

There's the ideas and there's the connection, [00:56:00] but everybody's got a different mental health background and family upbringing and history of traumas and all of that stuff really does need to come into play. And we can't compare ourselves with other people's process. We just can't. Whatever you are doing may be great for someone else or maybe the worst thing they can do.

And so exactly what you say, we need your reminders that it's different for everybody because it can be really easy to compare and despair, especially when you're in such a vulnerable place in your life, your life and your life. So it is really important, and I say that even with people grieving, the hope is over time, the intensity of everything you're going through lessens.

Yeah. But it's not gonna be the same linear trip for everybody. Just isn't.

Kevin: Did you say compare and despair? Was that was I sure did out there. I sure did. Um, because yeah, comparison is tough and, and comparison. We, we look at other people and we're like, they, you know, even if we were, we're, hey, we're in a reframe community [00:57:00] meeting. This person's on day 30 and they're feeling great, and I'm on day 30 and I feel like garbage.

Like, yeah, but we don't know where they came from. We don't know how long they've been working on this. We don't know what else is going on in their life. And, um, you know, day 30, day seven, day one, whatever it is, um, you know, forget about the days. Just we are comparing and, and that's, that's tough. So just recognize that we're all in this together.

But, you know, we we're all kind of working at our own pace and then, Two, whenever you have people coming in and you know, friends, uh, who are be like, oh, well maybe good intention, maybe not. And just be like, why don't you just try and have one? It's like, oh, I didn't think of that. Like, you know, it's, so you're dealing with that side of it too.

And you're comparing with people who you're trying to be like, and then you have other people who are telling you, why don't you just do this? And, uh, again, it goes back to just, you know, how can we focus on our journey, our evolution. I like that [00:58:00] word better than journey a lot. But, uh, and, and just move on.

Gina: I love evolution. Yeah. And yeah, at your own pace, in your own time with permission to fumble. And to be clumsy and to mess up and to do great and to celebrate those great moments and to remember to honor those good days. Um, you know, because we don't do it enough and to reach out and get support. I mean, it's all there.

We all know it, theoretically and intellectually. It's just a matter of doing it sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the hardest part, right? Everyone can, we're not, we're not rewriting the script here, you and I, but what I think is important about what you do is, is reminders, right? I, I love reminders.

And to say it again in a different way and, and in any way that makes people feel connected to. And that's the most important thing here. So I love what you're doing for this very reason. Whether or not people compare and despair [00:59:00] or what, everyone's got their own thing and I'm just glad that people keep showing up.

That's all there is to it. You know, I always say just to my clients in therapy, like, you don't have to do anything or be any way for me. All I ever ask of you is to show up on time and tell the truth and that's it. That's your only requirement. Yeah. The rest of it we can get through together and it's sort of the same thing, you know, in life and in Yeah.

And in recovery. So we show up on time and we tell the truth. Yeah. And the rest of it is just grist for the mill. It's all where the work lies. Just keep showing

Kevin: up. Yeah, just keep showing up. I love it. Uh, Gina, thank you so much for joining me today and, and talking with the Reframe community and, uh, If you would like to share a little bit about your book coming out, I can't wait to read that.

I got it pre-ordered already. Um, but if you wanna share a little bit about your book and, and anything else you're doing and, and where people [01:00:00] can find you, uh, please do.

Gina: Thank you so much, Kevin. Um, and thanks again for having me on. I love your community. Um, I, again, my book is called Moving On Doesn't Mean Letting Go.

Um, it's a modern guide to navigating loss and it is losses of all kinds, not just death loss. And the hope is it is really for people who've also endured trauma, um, to really contend with the ways that we've changed and how to rebuild our lives and just to have a sense of agency over things that feel really unpredictable.

So it's a little bit of my story of loss and, you know, my clients and some exercises and tools that I hope and. I hope beyond hope, you know, are helpful for people. And, um, you can find me also at ginamoffa.com and my Instagram, which I love trying to build a community there is, um, Gina Moffa, lcsw. So I would love to connect if anyone just has any questions anymore since this episode, um, please reach out.

I would love [01:01:00] to talk.

Kevin: Yeah. Thanks so much, Gina. Really appreciate you coming on today, and helping us out here. Uh, yeah, we will, uh, we'll see you soon and look forward to reading the book.

Gina: Absolutely. And thank you again, truly.

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Thank you all for listening to this week's episode of the Reframeable podcast, brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com. or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

I wanna thank you again for listening, and be sure to come back next week for another episode. Have a great day.

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